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  1. #21
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    let us know what the gremlin was when you find out. hopefully sooner than later. Not just for a completion of the story that starts with a spraying manure bang, but also for the troubleshooting education we gain.

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    When this first happened I remembered that "Spindle alarm 12" and wondered if it was the encoder, my tech guy opened it up and said it was dry inside (We've been getting coolant migration to that area). I had cleaned the cog belt and pulley's but they weren't that bad this time. Tech wants to check it out by some other means. I'll ask him to read the last few posts, maybe something there.

    I'd have never dreamed so many things could be replaced without doing any good. Well, that's not true, right after the spike it wouldn't run more than 6 seconds, now it runs over wide areas of the range I think, so what's been done has helped. The end result is not paying the bills though, not yet.
    Thanks guys,
    parts

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    ~3 weeks ago I asked if you would post what drive it is or even a couple pictures. It will help narrow down our suggestions of things to look at.

    I don't think I have ever seen an issue with the spindle encoder ever be related to alarm 12. Bad encoder or broken belt just makes the machine not feed.

    Some Fanuc drives use a couple large ceramic resistors in the output circuit. They are very low resistance and the spindle drive measures the voltage drop across those resistors to calculate the current being sent to the motor. Does your drive have those, and if so have they been tested?

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    You might check to see if your business insurance covers any of this. Mine covers machine damage that includes surges, downtime, etc... Never had to use it but it is comforting to know that it is there.

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    Who is the tech? If it isn't Rocky or Tom Ginsert you have the wrong guy. If it's one of them I have a difficult time believing the story.

    I Have a bunch of new and used Fanuc IGBT's and a few spare parts spindle drives on my spares shelf. Fanuc spindle drives are pretty straightforward.

    I would have a hard time believing a motor suddenly meggered bad after a power problem. If it meggers around the OK range it should still run. If all legs megger same it's probably fine.

    After meggering for an obvious problem I'd have checked IGBT's with a meter. You can download the Fanuc manual for your spindle drive and follow the igbt test procedure or you can just test ohms in there and play the sesame street game- Which one does not look like the others...

    I'd also check all the little Daito fuses on the spindle drive top board.

    Post up what model# the drive is. The drive model is usually under the top board near the 200/220V switch.

    It's probably a $20 IGBT

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  9. #26
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    Some Fanuc drives use a couple large ceramic resistors in the output circuit. They are very low resistance and the spindle drive measures the voltage drop across those resistors to calculate the current being sent to the motor. Does your drive have those, and if so have they been tested?
    In desperation, looking everywhere for a possible cause, my tech did check resistance across three buss bars, they are about 6" long by .080" thick strips of copper about 5/8-3/4" wide. These don't look like copper because they are plated, though if it's silver it's badly tarnished. The center area between the big connector screws are covered with shrink tube. He checked resistance and found some variation between them but mostly seemed surprised that there was any measurable resistance, being copper. (That's my take, he didn't say that, and as I've said I'm electrically illiterate)
    So he made new buss wires out of 1/4" diameter twisted copper wires and swaged big connectors on the ends, a nice looking job too. But again, this did not change the erratic intermittant error code stoppages.
    Guys, I'm not too up on what he's doing, I try to let him concentrate, but I think that was the last thing he tried. He may look at my explanations and find them funny,as I don't know much about it all.

    ~3 weeks ago I asked if you would post what drive it is or even a couple pictures. It will help narrow down our suggestions of things to look at.
    What would you like photos of? The spindle drive looked exactly the same as a brand new one, but in fact TIE had to replace a bunch of components. But if it will help I'll snap some photos.

    You might check to see if your business insurance covers any of this.
    I think all but lost production time is covered, the agent in Hartford sends weekly emails asking how it's going, she seems like a great person.

    I'd also check all the little Daito fuses on the spindle drive top board.
    Now THAT I'd like to see a photo of.

    The spindle drive; A06B-6082-2115#H510 The original Fanuc tech said both the spindle drive and the servo drive were open, abnormal. I have the whole report if it's legal to send the PDF to anyone who might have an idea as to what the heck is wrong. I don't want to burn any bridges doing so.
    Thanks very much guys.
    parts

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    That's newer than my fanuc stuff. Looks a lot like the style that uses a big potted brick inside you can't work on.

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    What would you like photos of? The spindle drive looked exactly the same as a brand new one, but in fact TIE had to replace a bunch of components. But if it will help I'll snap some photos.
    What bunch of components, details matter on this shit. no need to post a dull PDF, just a list of the bits. The 3 bridges your tech replaced sound like shunts, Shunts need to have a very specific cross section - resistance. The drive then measures the voltage drop over them to calculate current and drive output levels. Resistance, inductance and capacitance all have to be within a pretty narrow range for a drive to do its magic. Now bus bars, sure swap them out, but i kinda doubt you have blown bus bars!

    Replacing shunts with twisted wire won't work, they are a very precise part and they need to be right.Tarnished and dull - a funny yellow like non copper colour can also point to them over heating or point to them not actually being copper, but some kinda copper based alloy.

    Error 12, whats the drive manual say about that?

    Again, you have the wrong people working on this, that is why you have been down so long - spent so much. Your tech clearly based on what you are typing here does not have the electrical knowledge to fault find and repair this stuff at the board - individual component level. Hence why its taking so long with so minimal results. IMHO its seriously time to get someone else at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    What would you like photos of? The spindle drive looked exactly the same as a brand new one, but in fact TIE had to replace a bunch of components. But if it will help I'll snap some photos.
    Honey attracts more Bees than Vinegar and Horseshit just attracts flies. Kevin, AKA Vancbiker, is a great contributor to this Forum and you're fortunate that he is attempting to help you.

    You've given Ox a bit of a serve; these people are all trying to help you.

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  14. #30
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    I only skimmed the responses, why haven't you pulled the spindle drive and sent it to T.I.E.? They have a pretty good reputation.

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    Honey attracts more Bees than Vinegar and Horseshit just attracts flies. Kevin, AKA Vancbiker, is a great contributor to this Forum and you're fortunate that he is attempting to help you.

    You've given Ox a bit of a serve; these people are all trying to help you.
    I thought I was being very careful to not be antagonistic, but I guess in print without being known as an individual in daily life things take on traits of their own, certainly NOT intended. Perhaps that is why I took OX's post #9
    "That should have been done before you ever sent it to them to be rebuilt (or exchanged)." as a dig at me when, perhaps, it wasn't meant to be.

    In twenty plus years we have never had a electronic meltdown on this level, far beyond any other breakdowns we've been through. A few years ago a turret base for a live turret drive just plain wore out, which took months to get a replacement from Austria, but that's not electro-gizmoidal but mechanical, within my skill set. So if I think I'm being spoken harshly to I don't take it as helpful, though the original intentions may have been. I apologize.

    Now, as to what I should have done in November, with my limited experience and choices (My normal tech was on vacation) I did the best I could figure out to do, which was to call Fanuc. I think the fact that they weren't able to repair it says something about the difficulty of this diagnosis. Plus, the fact that Fanuc refused to replace the wires from the controller to the motor added a built in slow down, as the electrician I called felt the wire should be exactly the same metric size, I still don't know about that. By that time my normal guy was back from vacation and he took over.

    But as for taking a photo, I was honestly asking what good it would do while agreeing to do so, I certainly wouldn't know what exactly I'd photograph without being told, so, I was asking. All the boxes looked pristine, not burned up or smoky.

    I did take care to thank you all for your help, as that's all I can do.
    parts

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    I only skimmed the responses, why haven't you pulled the spindle drive and sent it to T.I.E.? They have a pretty good reputation.
    The first guy, from Fanuc, did replace the spindle drive plus trying two other swaps. His report is pretty long and I've got no doubt he did the best he could, and I know he was on the phone for consultation. The spindle drive he installed, when TIE was called later, was found to be defective. WHEN it became defective is a question worthy of a $6,000 answer, was it damaged by subsequent work? Doesn't sound likely. Nor does it sound likely that he would put in a bad drive.

  17. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    ..........But as for taking a photo, I was honestly asking what good it would do while agreeing to do so, I certainly wouldn't know what exactly I'd photograph without being told, so, I was asking. All the boxes looked pristine, not burned up or smoky.
    A picture of the drive or the part number of the drive was requested so that I and others would have an idea what drive you have. The operational concepts of a Fanuc spindle drive are similar across all the different sizes and generations of the drives, but they differ in smaller details that become crucial to troubleshooting a drive problem over an internet forum.

    As an example, I have board level schematics for several older drives. It would be a huge waste of time to study those in trying to troubleshoot a drive they did not apply to.

    I saw that you posted a part number last night. If I get time to go to my shop today I'll check to see what info I have for that drive.

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  19. #34
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    Ok, now we know you have had multiple drives in there, has anyone measured the incoming supply? What does it measure, is it in range?

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    Fanuc Spindle Drive Alarm 12

    From the wisdom of the forum... ^^^Ox's fanuc-spindle-drive-alarm-12


    I know electronics but LESS about fanuc electronics.

    My money would be on fried driver board / driver electronics / fried power transistors.

    But also the "Bang" on the board seems more reminiscent of a ground fault cause by "Bad" fried driver electronics.

    @OP if you not jiggy with high powered electrics and electronics I wouldn't go poking around too much, as some capacitors can still hold charge and due to fried transistors, power/current may be diverted in unintended ways through the circuitry and create a ground fault.

    Generally with finiky electronics rolling brown outs can be even more damaging than power surges or power cut.


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________


    @OP most of the "Gripes" on this thread is about the broader culture of subsystem repair rather than finding the ONE component
    that is actually at fault.

    I was born in the early 1970's and I remember the TV repair man (in the UK coming round) actually pulling the back off the 'TellY" and finding the one component that was clearly fried... (As a teenager I used to diagnose / fix old tellys and other equipment that way. ). Then the 1980's came with more integrated electronics and greater reliability and hence the knowledge of hunting down circuit faults has disappeared. Sub assemblies are just replaced in one go with very little knowledge (as time is expensive and deep deep knowledge is rare). Then come to the 2000's and to now (nearly 2020's) If an expensive monitor gets fried it's generally just thrown out and the whole unit is replaced. etc.

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________




    ^^^ Fast forward 18 mins and 20 seconds is good discussion of this principal, ["Secret Life of machines"]; Adama and gregorwarwick might remember this show.

    Today electronics are ultra-integrated and fewer and fewer folks know how stuff really works... BUT interesting that there is a "Movement" to be allowed to fix stuff/ make stuff repairable again (like I-phones etc.)

    Anyway @OP thought that might give you some perspective... The "Peeps" here are not trying to crucify specific "techs" it's just a gripe that has a 40 year gradient to it. Seems Fanuc are moving to more integrated components too. Very few people know how to fix stuff these days so the older salts on PM forum are a gold mine 'cuz when those guys hang up their spurs for good that knowledge will be pretty much lost forever.

    Also noteworthy in the Video is that the electrical power of a potato (with electrodes) was used to switch / allow much more massive power to flow through the power transistor… Just an illustration of how fragile electronics can be on the 'That" side of the circuit and easily messed up with rolling brown outs and power surges etc. Unless there is serious circuit protection and power conditioning (which is expensive , which is why it's NOT THERE ;-) I'm curious to see the schematics for that lol ).


    __________________________________________________


    Looking forward to learning about these types of electronics in a more focused way so hopefully some schematics, specs and photos emerge


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    Looked up the drive number and it is an later Alpha series. These use a separate power supply module that converts the 3 phase AC to DC to power the DC bus. Has the power supply module been checked out? When alarm 12 shows on the drive module, is there an alarm code on the power supply module?

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    Per the linked "Alarm 12" in my name from 2011 (?)

    Since some putz couldn't be bothered to come back and say what the trouble was, I don't even know for sure which machine that it was on.

    However - somewhere back there we did replace a large capacitor in a Fanuc power supply.
    It was a simple fix.

    Had what I thought to be a similar problem more recently and I thought that maybe we just needed to update the cap in that one now too - as it was actually about 3 yrs older than the one that we had changed a few yrs prior, but the older unit didn't seem to have anything like that, and I think that I ended up having to replace the supply altogether.

    Post the number of the supply, and I can compare.



    I git so sick of these jokers not coming back and punchlining their threads!





    edit:

    We also replaced a daughter board related to the optical tubing feedback.

    I did start a repair journal somewhere, but since I'm not 100% sure where it is, I obviously haven't kept it up.
    And then times like this when I would like to ref to history troubles and self diagnose, I kan't recall 100% what the trouble was as they all start to run together over the years....



    EDIT II:

    With all that said - I don't think that the bad cap made a "BANG".
    That sounds like IGBT / Transistors to me.



    ---------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  24. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Looked up the drive number and it is an later Alpha series. These use a separate power supply module that converts the 3 phase AC to DC to power the DC bus. Has the power supply module been checked out? When alarm 12 shows on the drive module, is there an alarm code on the power supply module?
    To that end, do the axis drives and motors work correctly?

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    I went back and reread this thread. A couple of years ago we had a near by lightning strike - big bang and everything went down. When the city got the power back up one of the 560s was not right. Would start, you could jog the machine, start the spindle at low rpm, but when we tried to run an actual production program the spindle would drop out and everything would come to a halt. Checked the voltage at the back of the machine and everything looked good. No burned smells anywhere, checked the voltage in the main box and good there too.

    Got the service guy in and he put a fast logging meter on the machine and we had one leg going super low with any real load applied (like trying to spin up the spindle). We thought the transformer might have taken a dump so we swapped it but the problem persisted. We then put the meter on the output side of the 100 amp circuit breaker that was feeding the machine and saw the voltage drop there. Pulled the breaker and it had a faint burned smell and the buss bar in the box showed evidence of arcing where the breaker bolted in. Put a new breaker in on a different spot (virgin bus bar territory) and the problem has not resurfaced since then. I now consider breakers as consumables and keep spares on hand. Might be worth checking.

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  27. #40
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    To that end, do the axis drives and motors work correctly?
    Yes, unaffected apparently, perhaps if they had been in use,,? But the machine was stopped awaiting a part change.

    I wasn't present when the big bang occurred, was only told about it. Some short time later I was there when startup was again attempted and there was another loud bang but I don't know if it came from the back side cabinet or from the main breaker box 35 feet away. At that point I said shut it down and went looking for others smarter than me about such things.

    A picture of the drive or the part number of the drive was requested so that I and others would have an idea what drive you have. The operational concepts of a Fanuc spindle drive are similar across all the different sizes and generations of the drives, but they differ in smaller details that become crucial to troubleshooting a drive problem over an internet forum.
    I'll take some photos of the bigger box pn's and some general wide shots so you can point to what else would help.
    Thanks Guys, I told my technician about the thread and hope he is following this, as the answer may be in here somewhere.


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