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  1. #41
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    Does this spindle motor have multiple windings? That can be another thing to look at. Typically the winding will be switched automatically in the drive. I don't know what the switching mechanism is exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    To that end, do the axis drives and motors work correctly?
    It is not uncommon for a lathe to have a separate power module for the spindle drive from the servo drive power module. If the OP's machine is set up that way, then servos might be fine while spindle is not.

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey_D View Post
    I now consider breakers as consumables and keep spares on hand. Might be worth checking.
    I have a whole roll away drawer full of them. A lot of people seem to forget they can have all kinds of failures without tripping, low voltage, dropping a leg, etc. People just reset them and move on without pulling out the meter.

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  6. #44
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    A few photos;
    img_0139.jpg
    img_0132.jpgimg_0130.jpg

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    Not sure what any of this is, the first I think is the spindle drive info sticker.
    img_0138.jpgimg_0137.jpgimg_0136.jpg

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    and more;
    img_0135.jpgimg_0134.jpgimg_0133.jpgimg_0131.jpg

  9. #47
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    Looks like from left to right at the top you have a 2 axis servo drive, a spindle drive, a power supply, and a I/O unit for the encoders and other motion control stuff. The servo drive and spindle drive do share a power supply, so if the servos are working correctly, I'd think the PS is OK.

    You can probably put the silver bus bars back in. I doubt there's any issue with them. Though the wires you made up don't look too bad.

    It doesn't look too bad considering how many hands have been in there.

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    Thanks for the pics!

    So to recap, the middle module in the first (one with the cover flipped up) has been replaced with a known good unit and you still get alarm 12 on that unit?

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    The first exchange done by the Fanuc tech was a swap of the spindle drive AO6B-6082-H215#H510, with what turned out later to be a rebuilt SD, . He also replaced the power supply AO6B-6087-H115 He wrote in the report that he got error codes 750 and 401 on each axis. After that, he wrote that he replaced A06B-6079-H206 to see if that was causing the alarms. They were not stopped. He said then that the alarms are most likely caused by a bad main board A16B-3200-0020.
    The next day (Day 3) he says he again replaced the SA A06B-6082-H215-#510 WITH ANOTHER new unit to rule it out again. He says he performed an SRAM and PMC backup, then replaced the SRAM A20B-2901-0765 and refreshed it's memory. He swapped cables around to determine if it was a cable issue. This still got error codes 750 and 751, He replaced the parameters with another set (backup from this TW-30), that caused other alarms. He found that P4054 (Velocity loop integral gain) was set at 32700 which varied from the original value of 50. (I had backed up two sets of parameters many years earlier, the original and this set referred to which was changed by another Fanuc tech, which did solve that problem at the time and which worked fine until this big electrical spike.) This got codes 750 and 751.
    He stated that "we were able to zero return the axis but got spindle alarm 12 when the motor was turned on. He identified that as has been said here earlier as the DC link overcurent. He stated that he put the original SRAM module and servo amp.
    At that time the original tech, my friend, returned from vacation and replaced the cables to the motor, no joy.

    Later, my regular tech and personal friend was running through things trying to rule out things he, and I believe in consultation with someone at TIE, they agreed that the swapped SD needed to be checked out. I later got it back with $2500+ repairs done, and apparently final checked good. It was after this that my friend started trying less obvious possibilities. I feel sorry for the him and only wish I could somehow help. Plus it would be kind of nice if the lathe was running again.
    Thanks again,
    parts

  12. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    He replaced the parameters with another set (backup from this TW-30), that caused other alarms. He found that P4054 (Velocity loop integral gain) was set at 32700
    I know this isn't helpful, and I apologise, but it bears repeating.

    32700 is (almost, depending on a few factors) the maximum value of a 16 bit signed integer, which suggests that parameter was completely uninitialised, which in turn suggests that the parameter backup is compromised.

    Which reinforces my point that a machine that was working perfectly, that suffered some kind of obvious hardware failure, should absolutely not have it's parameters interfered with until the fault is properly identified.

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  14. #51
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    Can you explain exactly how and when the alarms are generated? Just the AL12? Are all modules showing healthy lights, axis move, everything is good until you command the spindle? When commanded, does the spindle move at all? How quick does the alarm generate? Immediate? 2sec?

    If you spin the spindle manually, do you see RPMs show on the display?

    If you are getting an over current that is real, that would be detectable with a meter on associated leads.

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  16. #52
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    gregormarwick, The parameter change occurred soon after the machine was purchased, a different Fanuc technician was called, probably 2004 or 2007, and within a couple days, with phone consultation between him and engineers somewhere else, made the changes, I think about 8 or 10 parameters, that got the machine running again. 2004 or 2007 to 2018 (Nov is when the earth turned upside down.) is of course 14 or 11 years of happy production. I can't remember why I called Fanuc and why my regular technician wasn't involved, too long ago.

    huleo, I know that my regular tech got it, with consultation with TIE engineers, to run, but although the machine would respond to program spindle commands ramping the RPM's up and down in jog, caused errors. Whether or not they were Spindle error 12 or something else I'm sorry, I didn't see them.
    Since this stuff is like black magic to me I concentrated on other work, manual machines, while he worked on it.

    The good news this morning is that he is coming back today or tomorrow and has been waiting for another component.

    The last major breakdown took months to repair because spare parts on another machine were not in stock at the manufacturer's location in Austria, with assurances that they were making a new part for it I wasn't losing sleep, just production.

    This one though has prolonged uncertainty about it, so for three nights in a row I've had little sleep.

    I worry that asking for ideas in a public forum might have offended people who have been here to help, certainly that wasn't the intention, I never wanted to burn bridges either for Fanuc or my regular repairman. Besides all the rest there is uncertainty as to who will end up paying for this disaster, though I have gotten good feedback from the insurance adjuster.

    I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

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  18. #53
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    Gotta say - I just don't understand insurance on machine breakdowns - especially on 20 yr old CNC's.
    Someone must be out of the bloody mind!


    -------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    I don't understand how a machine can be down for months, and many thousands spent without a repair. Doesn't sound like Fanuc did much of anything in the way of real tech work, just swapped parts around. I guess it reinforces why I try to stay sharp on my electronic skills. I don't even want to see what the total bill looks like on this machine.

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  21. #55
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    I just don't understand insurance on machine breakdowns - especially on 20 yr old CNC's.
    Our insurance is general liability insurance, which covers unforeseen damages of all kinds, I don't understand how anyone can do business without it. Some scam artist walks in, has you make a part and then sues you for millions, my deductible is only $2500, the insurance pays all the rest (Except as noted, lost production because you had to go to court, or, in my case, because the machine is down).

  22. #56
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    Ok, so all the fanuc repair man stuff + parameter change was back in the single digit 2000 years and whilst similar problems, they did at the time fix it and things did work.

    Nov 2018 the power fault happened that caused the current mess and your guys been on it since. Fanuc have not touched it in over a decade or is it both fanuc late 2018 and your guy in 2019 working on this?

    Very different to how your first post read, the details really matters on this stuff if you want useful ideas to chase with us lot, knowing it had a fault back in 2007 is only partially useful, its not all that relevant to the current problem.

    Knowing what its doing, not doing and passing that info to us with details may mean someone here can help give you - your tech leads to chase down the issue.

    If the machine is now functioning by programmed command but not jog controls, it points to the spindle drive being fine but the manual jog controls having a fault or being a victim in the parameter changes. Again, knowing whats wrong with the machine lets us give useful replies, what was fixed last week by the tech no longer needs fixing presumably and its the next piece of the puzzle that does.

    FYI if your going to stay with this profession for a few more decades, especially if running this kinda older machines, it may pay to learn a little of the black magic. No need to become expert, but a solid grasp of how the basic blocks of the control process works can prove useful at times like this.

  23. #57
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    surge then machine doesn't work. you replaced, fiddled with every wire in the black magic grey box, and machine turns on, but one thing doesn't work - spindle, or manuals, jogs, or . I have seen similar on our drill, fortunately a fuse burned in the surge which was the easy part. Chasing the mouse, one of the two ground rods had lost connection in the surge, a faint arc residue was giving a bad connection to it. Being two rods it was erratic, but constantly something. I found it by noticing engaging saw clamps- a separate, but tied, piece of equipment moved one of the spindles on drill. check all grounds on machine (check wire and iron for ground) and the magic grey box of wizards.
    good luck, do not let the robot see your frustration.

  24. #58
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    My old repairman is totally stumped, he tried something else today and whatever it was didn't help. My insurance adjuster is emailing me asking what's up and I can only say I don't know. The spindle drive's been replaced, repaired again (?) and replaced again, the encoder was replaced, other major electronic components as well.

    I blame Fanuc for not doing the whole repair. Had they not refused to replace the power from the controller to the motor when they thought that was where the problem was the responsibility (Limited, but at least continuous diagnosis) would have remained in their hands, forcing me to get someone else to wire the motor up took them out of the picture. I mean that had they "Owned" the repair I have to assume they could have gotten it done.
    As it stands right now I don't know what to do. The cost of repairs to date exceeds the value of the machine, and of course had I known that it wouldn't have been the normal quick fix we'd have replaced it, but I expect the insurance would have demanded a repair be attempted. I'm almost 70 years old guys, wanting retirement while wanting my employee to continue on the legacy for both him and my customers, but I can't leave this mess as is.
    Thanks to all who have tried to help. The lathe was a good servant, I started with it and liked it a lot, easy to program and set up and run for almost 20 years, and still doing accurate work every day up 'til the spike.
    parts

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  26. #59
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    I asked questions but got no answers. Not sure what you are expecting from a forum but no one can help you because you don't known anything about your machine. There is little doubt Fanuc dropped the ball here and should be involved. I have heard from several people how they seek to escape a situation for very simple reasons and basically say "its not our equipment". In short, a massive waste of money.

    You either need to get fresh eyes on the job or push it out the door. Your current guy cannot figure it out.

    In some respects, this seems like poor management and you are being taken advantage of. Send out a spindle drive 3-4x? WTF was actually wrong with it? The word "rebuilt" means absolutely nothing to me because they never actually "rebuild" them.

    At this point, I don't even know what issues it is having.

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  28. #60
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    I'm wondering what actually generates the spindle over-current alarm.

    I mean, there has to be either an actual resistive shunt with a tap, or a hall effect sensor shunt.

    Is the shunt in the drive or the power supply?

    Is the shunt/current sensor optically connected to the controller, or does the drive/power supply read the shunt and report (via control bus) to the control that there is an OC?

    Has a current clamp been used to prove or disprove an OC to the motor or from the power supply?

    Have they used a diagnostic tool to directly control the spindle drive and remove the control from the loop?

    How much torque does it take to bar over the spindle? Did the spindle sustain damage which would cause excessive torque?

    Have they put a decent meter on EVERY DC power supply in that cabinet and confirmed that a) it's putting out rated voltage b) the ripple (AC component) is low?

    Some tweaker ran into a pole at 4am a few weeks ago, took out an HV pole, popped the fuse at the end of the street, popped a breaker in my house, and fried my washing machine control board. The MOV on the control board didn't exist anymore, it was obliterated. The control chip got warm (indicating internal short from OV condition).

    With HV events, there can be other problems in that cabinet which are unrelated to the part giving the fault, because there are multiple power supplies and electronics can be sensitive to ripple currents. The way a modern power supply is constructed is that they have an MOV (voltage limiter) on the input, some capacitors, and some rectifier diodes that feed 1 or more 400v electrolytic capacitors.

    400v is good for 120/240v usage, but not enough for European 380v. It's possible that the other DC power supplies in the machine have been compromised by the HV event and need to be ruled out as a cause of your problems.

    A blown optoisolator can trigger intermittently, causing dithering that will be read as a fault. Optoisolators pull the output low when the input is high. They have an LED on the input that triggers a phototransistor on the output. If the LED is damaged and the opto is operated in normally-on mode, the LED can induce too small of a current in the transistor, causing the circuit not to pass current properly on the output, leading to a fault.

    Those Solid-state Relays work exactly the same way and fail in exactly the same manner, so you should check all those out too.

    Once this issue is resolved, I'd spend some bucks and outfit your machines with these: Industrial High Energy Varistors - Littelfuse

    Put them after the input disconnect breaker, when an overvoltage occurs it'll disconnect the machine from mains.

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