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  1. #81
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    Carefully optimistic good news, an email today;

    "The spindle amp didn't work on the one machine I was hoping.
    I went to another company and spoke with an old school electrical engineer. He asked if I could bring the power supply to him. They had a similar situation. We are going to use a portable oscilloscope on it."

    I hope this narrows things down.

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    Not sure what that means?

    Your tech has pulled your drive and trying to install it in someone else's known good machine to check, and it failed?


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    Carefully optimistic good news, an email today;

    "The spindle amp didn't work on the one machine I was hoping.
    I went to another company and spoke with an old school electrical engineer. He asked if I could bring the power supply to him. They had a similar situation. We are going to use a portable oscilloscope on it."

    I hope this narrows things down.
    I don't need any affirmations but I think I mentioned scoping that drive and related components days ago and it should have been done on DAY ONE by a COMPETENT field engineer, NOT a parts changer, when the quick fixes did not work. I do enjoy when people talk about using a scope but actually many that have them have no clue how to use them. Its pretty much like a 3rd grader having a scientific calculator. However, you can bet an EE knows how to use a scope, and more importantly, knows how to digest the data.

    If I were you, I would cut to the chase and bring that EE in to solve this riddle quick fast.

    I will try to stay on the first step of my soap box but I have literally seen more competent TV repairmen in electronics, than HIGH DOLLAR CNC repair 'techs'. I have seen first hand how some of these repair houses repair stuff for FIVE GRAND.

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  5. #84
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    Your tech has pulled your drive and trying to install it in someone else's known good machine to check, and it failed?
    That's how I took it. I also assume my amplifier didn't cause any damage to his customer's lathe, which was probably only my concern because I'm ignorant about such matters. He did earlier try to take it to a different customer who wouldn't let him swap it out to test it, so my concern, if based on ignorance, is at least a common one.

    If I were you, I would cut to the chase and bring that EE in to solve this riddle quick fast.
    I think that's what he's doing, taking the amplifier to an electrical engineer, who also has an oscilloscope.

    I appreciate helpful comments which are based on knowledge of these things. But as for others being slow to fix it I don't know, after all the components were supposed to be repaired, so naturally one wouldn't assume they were bad, and I still have a hard time believing it. I also think every set of eyes brought to the problem assumed it wasn't going to be as difficult as it's turned out to be.
    My repairman has helped me out with less difficult problems many times, I'm grateful. I actually feel like this forced him into a much more difficult scenario than he normally has to deal with. But as he said, he is learning new things by it.
    I'll report back as I get info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    ......I think that's what he's doing, taking the amplifier to an electrical engineer, who also has an oscilloscope......
    It's a little tough to imagine a field service engineer or technician not having their own oscilloscope (and knowing how to use it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    It's a little tough to imagine a field service engineer or technician not having their own oscilloscope (and knowing how to use it).
    Your age is showing. I don't have a tech who has their own oscilloscope. I don't know why they would today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Your age is showing. I don't have a tech who has their own oscilloscope. I don't know why they would today.
    I am old.

    For a tech working on new or newish stuff, there would be little use. Especially when working for a dealer or builder where parts changing under warranty is more the norm. I can see your guys not having their own, but would hope that they have access to one for the times when it would be helpful.

    There are times in service than an o'scope is still a very useful tool. The OP's machine is a perfect example. Somewhere along this thread, the spindle encoder was replaced as an attempted fix. This was purely a WAG at the problem that cost the OP at least $1k and added a couple more days downtime. 10 minutes with a scope and the tech could have tested the encoder and seen that it was OK and moved on.

    Erratic control performance is often a result of AC ripple in a DC power supply. O'scope is the tool to check that. Save the WAG parts swapping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    That's how I took it. I also assume my amplifier didn't cause any damage to his customer's lathe, which was probably only my concern because I'm ignorant about such matters. He did earlier try to take it to a different customer who wouldn't let him swap it out to test it, so my concern, if based on ignorance, is at least a common one.


    I think that's what he's doing, taking the amplifier to an electrical engineer, who also has an oscilloscope.

    I appreciate helpful comments which are based on knowledge of these things. But as for others being slow to fix it I don't know, after all the components were supposed to be repaired, so naturally one wouldn't assume they were bad, and I still have a hard time believing it. I also think every set of eyes brought to the problem assumed it wasn't going to be as difficult as it's turned out to be.
    My repairman has helped me out with less difficult problems many times, I'm grateful. I actually feel like this forced him into a much more difficult scenario than he normally has to deal with. But as he said, he is learning new things by it.
    I'll report back as I get info.
    Sorry to hear your problem, I have been there same alarm
    what makes your problem acute is your location, I am in los angeles area where is a big pool of cnc repair guys that would had you running next day,I do not believe that shop owners fix those problems
    we remove metal, I only reset switches,swap boards,remove motors, tight jigs etc. do that make me a cnc repairman no, those guys know their stuff.
    Need to get a hold of a cnc repair from here,I say here because we have maybe two thousand machine shops,so those guys been around the block since Acrolok to some many korean lathes that have fanuc controllers, sorry that you spent hard earned dollars, and I mean it
    because this trade can be brutal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    It's a little tough to imagine a field service engineer or technician not having their own oscilloscope (and knowing how to use it).
    Exactly, maybe im a odd ball but i have more than enough gear to test most things i work on and also large enough current and voltage regulated power supplies to run them. Multiple Ac and DC clamp on meters, Meggas etc, you absolutely need this stuff if your diagnosing drive faults. Have multiple cable testers too, testing shit is always the fastest way to fix things. Its like taking a x ray of a possibly broken limb when its still in alignment - might not be fully broken, rather than strapping it up in plaster for 6 weeks just in case it is broken.

    I do have a small portable scope these days, but one of the first scope based repairs i did for a customer was before that and i borrowed dads old Cathode tube one. Was a problem with a encoder miscounting, previous engineers had been in and swapped all sorts of shit, but none touched the encoder, the second i wheeled the scope in (its on its own cart) the customer was mesmerized, this think was full of valves and looked straight out of a 1920's Frankenstein movie, lovely big bacalite knobs the works, i went from some spotty nose kid in there eyes (was in my early 20's rest of the engineers were diansours and the staff in that place were nearer retirement than most places) to some kinda open heart surgeon. By the time i had it hooked up you could damn near hear a pin drop, had the best part of damn near a whole audience of staff watching. Second the "heart beat" like pulse trains came up after the tube warmed up i tell you they thought i was a god! You could see the random missed pulses too. Everyone before me guessed, the customer had been down for about 3 weeks, lots of parts had been replaced. In 5 minutes i had a "picture" on a screen even the customer could see was clearly odd.

    Pulled the encoder, took it some were clean off the shop floor and cleaned it out there and then, put it back on and the pulse train was perfect, after that, they never wanted anyone other than me fixing there machines. Its so much easier being a tech too when you walk into a place and they just know you got it, your not going any were till things are working and you have a 100% success rate. its very much a mind set thing and a scope is a great theatrical prop as much as anything else to build that customer confidence as much as it is to prove the fault. Fault finding for me goes as listen to the customers problem, guess based on symptoms, then take measurements - confirm that guess, then either fix it or replace the part that's causing the fault, then test run. Sure some faults have multiple levels of failures, but i have never been to the same fault more than 3 times with out fixing it. I had the lowest parts bill every month i worked in the company too.

    Its not just having the test gear and knowing how to use it its the very service your selling as a tech. Your selling a level of expertise the customer does not have.

    To me a tech with out electrical test gear and the knowledge to use it is on a par with a machine shop with nothing but rulers for part measurement. Sure, i don't take most the test gear to most jobs, sure my most used and highest profit maker is my number 2 Jis screw driver, that £4 wiha screw driver has made me more money than any other tool i have ever owned. No word of a lie, that one bloody screw driver is probably responsible for fixes that have allowed my customers to make hundreds of millions of pounds of product.

    You have gotta get a tech on site with real knowledge and the gear to find the fault if your ever going to fix this. Its that simple. Taking a drive off a machine and trying to duplicate a fault else were is not a good idea, yes it risks others machines, it also changes the environment of the fault.

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    I'm afraid someone that says "having an Oscope shows your age" is really saying "I don't have much experience with electronics to even make that statement". Any EE from today, back to 100yrs ago can easily see the utility of an Oscope. They have changed in speed, size, and function, as have the circuits they test, but the usefulness is the same.

    Again, this is no different than the 2nd grader with a high tech calculator.....Useless and unexciting to all but the ones that understand their function.

    To say that an Oscope is somehow being "phased out", that just bleeds ignorance. Scopes can read and monitor glitches in MANY things. Pressure sensors, temp sensors, you name it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huleo View Post
    ......Scopes can read and monitor glitches in MANY things. Pressure sensors, temp sensors, you name it.
    Yep. Used mine about a month ago on a Fanuc 11M that had flickering CRT. Scoped the power supply and found a bad AC ripple. Swapped out ~$9 of old electrolytic capacitors on the power supply and now it looks as good as new. Only 2 of the caps measured bad, but they were all >30 years old and such low cost it was prudent to swap them all.

    I suspect most "techs" would have just told the owner they needed a new or rebuilt CRT. Probably the better part of $2k.
    Last edited by Vancbiker; 03-04-2019 at 02:40 PM.

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    I'm just a hobbyist on a large scale but certainly wouldn't be without my oscilloscope - in fact I have just upgraded from a 60 mHz Tektronics one that I carried in the field on service visits in the 1980's to a newer 400 mHz one - still CRT & Tektronics. Having retired I still play, and have repaired controllers on two CNC lathes I bought to play with - a Traub TND350G with Mitsubishi control, and my latest a Beaver TC-20 with a Siemens 820T control. Multiple faults on both and utterly impossible to bottom out unless I had a whole shed load of new parts OR AN OSCILLOSCOPE !!!!!!! These machines were hopeless cases destined for the scrap yard, but I fixed them both. The Traub is now making precision parts for Her Majesty's navy, and the Beaver I will probably keep

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    My scope gets used once in a blue moon, but when you need it, you need it.

    I bought a new Rigol about 10 years ago for about £400 or something like that. It has saved me it's purchase cost many times over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    My scope gets used once in a blue moon, but when you need it, you need it.

    I bought a new Rigol about 10 years ago for about £400 or something like that. It has saved me it's purchase cost many times over.
    LOL, the "O" in o’scope doesn’t stand for old…

    In addition to snooping around with ‘lectric stuff you can add transducers, accelerometers & other nifty shit to get downright medieval with running machinery.

    BTW the Rigols are very good scopes.

    Good luck,
    Matt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails hantek_scope_scaled.jpg  

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    My mechanic left today after changing a chipset (My word, I know he called it a chip) which looked like a long chip. Said the motor ramps up slowly but chokes on more rapid advances. He is about done and to be honest that really bothers me because he has helped me so many times, this has been his white whale!
    He said he's going to talk with another guy who us more up on electronics, I suggested asking TIE to fly someone out, but told him I wanted him to do it.
    That's where we are as of now.

    Nowhere.

    If anyone knows someone in the NW who can come in and look it over I am sure my friend won't mind. I'd like to include him in the diagnosis of the problem though if possible as he has worked so hard on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewmawson View Post
    I'm just a hobbyist on a large scale but certainly wouldn't be without my oscilloscope - in fact I have just upgraded from a 60 mHz Tektronics one that I carried in the field on service visits in the 1980's to a newer 400 mHz one - still CRT & Tektronics. Having retired I still play, and have repaired controllers on two CNC lathes I bought to play with - a Traub TND350G with Mitsubishi control, and my latest a Beaver TC-20 with a Siemens 820T control. Multiple faults on both and utterly impossible to bottom out unless I had a whole shed load of new parts OR AN OSCILLOSCOPE !!!!!!! These machines were hopeless cases destined for the scrap yard, but I fixed them both. The Traub is now making precision parts for Her Majesty's navy, and the Beaver I will probably keep

    If you get bored, you can do this with your old Tekrtonix scope...



    fast forward to 4 minutes and 30 seconds... (sorry I couldn't resist.).

    All this stuff is making a comeback and getting re-hacked in new ways.

    Segment past 9:30 pretty much says it all really lol.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

    YouTube

    ^^^ Jerobeam Fenderson's work … *

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________
    __________________________________________________ ______________________________


    @partsproduction sorry you are still having trouble …


    _________________________

    'scope is an essential piece of kit.

    ______________

    * No Affiliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Your age is showing. I don't have a tech who has their own oscilloscope. I don't know why they would today.
    Jeez. I bought my first oscilloscope when I was in my teens and interested in CB radios. It was an old Tecktronix with vacuum tube, but it worked.

    I have a Rigol digital storage scope that I bought about 5 years ago. It's absolutely brilliant and you can buy a new one for less than $300. The storage feature is so handy for reviewing anomalies. Plus I can put it in "roll mode" and use it like a graphing volt meter.

    I've been eying this Hantek portable unit. It looks very capable, and for 1/4 the cost of a Fluke. Plus it uses standard BNC connections for the leads. Hantek DSO1062B Handheld Oscilloscope and Digital Multimeter


    However, I can tell you that very few technicians own or know how to use a scope. You'd actually be far more likely to find a car mechanic using one than a guy fixing a $.5 million machine tool.

    I did some work for a machine tool builder that did not have a functioning scope in their entire facility. I was there once working on a multi-winding motor that would not run in high speed. I asked for a clamp on amp meter. They couldn't find one. I had to go home and get mine.

    One time they called me in to help one of their senior field service techs. He had been flown in to fix some electrical issues on a large boring mill and he didn't even have a multi-meter!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Jeez. I bought my first oscilloscope when I was in my teens and interested in CB radios. It was an old Tecktronix with vacuum tube, but it worked.

    I have a Rigol digital storage scope that I bought about 5 years ago. It's absolutely brilliant and you can buy a new one for less than $300. The storage feature is so handy for reviewing anomalies. Plus I can put it in "roll mode" and use it like a graphing volt meter.

    I've been eying this Hantek portable unit. It looks very capable, and for 1/4 the cost of a Fluke. Plus it uses standard BNC connections for the leads. Hantek DSO1062B Handheld Oscilloscope and Digital Multimeter


    However, I can tell you that very few technicians own or know how to use a scope. You'd actually be far more likely to find a car mechanic using one than a guy fixing a $.5 million machine tool.

    I did some work for a machine tool builder that did not have a functioning scope in their entire facility. I was there once working on a multi-winding motor that would not run in high speed. I asked for a clamp on amp meter. They couldn't find one. I had to go home and get mine.

    One time they called me in to help one of their senior field service techs. He had been flown in to fix some electrical issues on a large boring mill and he didn't even have a multi-meter!
    While I was slightly kidding, my guys would have little to no use for a scope. Modern machines where we switch parts and at a very rare rate. Drives last 15 years plus and are reasonably priced. Any old Fanuc problems, we would just defer to Fanuc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Jeez. I bought my first oscilloscope when I was in my teens and interested in CB radios. It was an old Tecktronix with vacuum tube, but it worked.

    I have a Rigol digital storage scope that I bought about 5 years ago. It's absolutely brilliant and you can buy a new one for less than $300. The storage feature is so handy for reviewing anomalies. Plus I can put it in "roll mode" and use it like a graphing volt meter.

    I've been eying this Hantek portable unit. It looks very capable, and for 1/4 the cost of a Fluke. Plus it uses standard BNC connections for the leads. Hantek DSO1062B Handheld Oscilloscope and Digital Multimeter


    However, I can tell you that very few technicians own or know how to use a scope. You'd actually be far more likely to find a car mechanic using one than a guy fixing a $.5 million machine tool.

    I did some work for a machine tool builder that did not have a functioning scope in their entire facility. I was there once working on a multi-winding motor that would not run in high speed. I asked for a clamp on amp meter. They couldn't find one. I had to go home and get mine.

    One time they called me in to help one of their senior field service techs. He had been flown in to fix some electrical issues on a large boring mill and he didn't even have a multi-meter!

    . . . pshaw . .. I MADE my first oscilloscope when I was in my teens VCR97 WW2 radar tube and EF50 valves . . . youngsters . . . .!

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    Still have my old Heathkit... So new it actually has transistors.


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