Lathe Turret Hanging Only In production Programs

I'm still having this problem where in every production program, at some point the turret will hang up after unclamping. I've trouble shot far enough to know that all the signals are correct for the unclamped state. The buffer displays MEM-STRT-MTN-FIN. To me that says the turret servo has been told to rotate but it's not rotating. One question I have is where do I find verification for the signal?. Is that going to be a G address? What would it be called? I have been unable to locate anything in the ladder or electrical manuals that says Turret Motor Forward or what have you. The ladder for the turret is about 15 pages long so it's a mind bender, especially for someone who barely gets ladders anyway. BTW I have also physically verified the turret unlock pin is out and the Y address agrees. X and Y diagnostic bits I get.

But wait, here's the wrench.

I can rotate the turret without failing even once in a multitude of different circumstances. I've created programs run from memory like any other program that rotates the turret to and fro, even with just the two tools this current job has. I've done multiple version of it too, including axis movement at rapid between turret changes. Coolant on and off between changes. I've taken the failing program and tried changing to an unused station first in both CW and CCW directions before going back to the tool I really want. It then hangs on the new unneeded tool station. Every scenario I can come up with to mimic the current program short of just running the failing program. Manual operation also never ever fails.

It's seems like under certain circumstance the turret drive call is different or coming from a different place that somehow makes a difference in success or failure. I have a long production run coming up next and really want to get this figured out.

Don't know where to look or what to do next. All answers and ideas are much appreciated.

2000 Mori SL200-SMC Fanuc 18i-TA (Mori MSC-501)

On a similar note.In the PMC or Ladder screen I see two soft buttons. DUMP and DPARA. Can these help me offload a copy of the ladder or something? I have a ladder book for a roughly similar machine but not the exact one. So far it seems pretty close. Any idea what these buttons do? Mori wants $650.00 and 6 weeks for a copy of the ladder. I might have to bight the bullet someday, but... Thanks for any and all help.

Dave

13engines said:

Mori wants $650.00 and 6 weeks for a copy of the ladder.

Click to expand...

Whaaaaaaa......

It's that hard for them to give you a LADDER COPY..??

I mean, God forbid, what if a SPINDLE goes? An arm and TWO legs?

ChipSplitter said:

Whaaaaaaa......

It's that hard for them to give you a LADDER COPY..??

I mean, God forbid, what if a SPINDLE goes? An arm and TWO legs?

Click to expand...

MORI PARTS said:

Hello David,

The ODS came quoted for the Electrical and the Ladder Diagrams on CD. An ODS can only be ordered as it is and not for any individual items in the quote. If you prefer to only have the Ladder on CD, it will need to be entered as a new ODS. I did ask for only the Ladder as you requested. It is possible it is not available separately. Your quote for both is below.

Part # D2002-0470-01 CDR Electrical Diagram & Ladder Diagram
List: $654.00
Delivery: 1.5 months
Machine: SL-200SMC Serial # 1074
User: ShrapNell Machine
Note: ALL SPECIAL DESIGN ORDERS ARE NON-RETURNABLE AND NON-CANCELLABLE

Kind regards,

Mike
Direct Sales Support Chicago Parts

DMG MORI USA
2400 Huntington Blvd.
Hoffman Estates, IL 60192

Click to expand...

To be sure... I don't make this sh*t up.

Ran across another Youtube video that got me going where I never realized I needed to go. Fanuc Connection Manual (Function) I'm starting to get-it even more about F's and G's and R's and whatnot going through this somewhat close ladder copy I have. Almost positive there is nothing mechanically wrong other then maybe a loose wire? Finding out where the signal is hanging is going to be what fixes this. A head scratcher for sure, but gives me hope. All the knowledge gained over the years always seems to come in fits and starts just like it is here.

Dave

Have you called Fanuc directly?

There are three methods of running a servo turret that I have seen and probably a couple that I have not for Fanuc equipped machines. I don't know what method Mori used.

One method is that the servo turret is controlled as essentially a T axis. The T code is still processed by the PMC to determine whether or not it is unclamped and ready to rotate, but the actual motion is handled by the CNC.

Another method is that the servo turret is a PMC axis where everything about running the servo is controlled by the PMC.

The third method is that the 16i/18i series controls can run an embedded control system call Power Motion Manager or Power Mate Manager. This control receives info from the PMC but contains it's own servo parameters, program(s) etc.

To start troubleshooting this, I think one needs to figure out what basic method is used on your machine.

To see if you have a T axis type look at parameter 1010. Since you have an MC type machine it should be at least 3 (X, Y, C). If it is 4 then that tells me you have a T axis.

To see if it has the Power Motion Manager system you will see a softkey labeled PMM under one of the SYSTEM displays.

13engines said:

To be sure... I don't make this sh*t up.

Click to expand...

I don't doubt you for a minute.

I've heard similar stories from other DMG Mori owners.

ChipSplitter said:

.....I've heard similar stories from other DMG Mori owners.

Click to expand...

I let a guy scan several of my Mori TV30 manuals because Mori quoted him ~$800 IIRC, for the set. I think the local outfit he hired to do the scanning charged him ~$300 for the job. That included having them pick up the manuals from me and deliver them back.

IMO, a used machine missing the schematic, ladder, builder's operation, and parts manuals loses about half its value because those are so important to getting and keeping a machine running long term.

I just can't understand why a company would consistently rip people off like that.

If they have records of the ladder logic, wouldn't it be better for the company in the long run to give it to a customer for free, or like $100?

If they did that, it would create positive publicity instead of shooting themselves in the foot.

ChipSplitter said:

I just can't understand why a company would consistently rip people off like that.

If they have records of the ladder logic, wouldn't it be better for the company in the long run to give it to a customer for free, or like $100?

If they did that, it would create positive publicity instead of shooting themselves in the foot.

Click to expand...

In the case I mentioned the $800 broke down to ~$130 per manual. The issue the guy faced was that he got nothing when he bought the machine so needed a full set with the exception of the Mitsu control manuals which he found online. So the price per document was fine, just he needed so many that it got expensive.

Vancbiker said:

There are three methods of running a servo turret that I have seen and probably a couple that I have not for Fanuc equipped machines. I don't know what method Mori used.

One method is that the servo turret is controlled as essentially a T axis. The T code is still processed by the PMC to determine whether or not it is unclamped and ready to rotate, but the actual motion is handled by the CNC.

Another method is that the servo turret is a PMC axis where everything about running the servo is controlled by the PMC.

The third method is that the 16i/18i series controls can run an embedded control system call Power Motion Manager or Power Mate Manager. This control receives info from the PMC but contains it's own servo parameters, program(s) etc.

To start troubleshooting this, I think one needs to figure out what basic method is used on your machine.

To see if you have a T axis type look at parameter 1010. Since you have an MC type machine it should be at least 3 (X, Y, C). If it is 4 then that tells me you have a T axis.

To see if it has the Power Motion Manager system you will see a softkey labeled PMM under one of the SYSTEM displays.

Click to expand...

Hello Vancbiker,

I'm leaning on your T axis idea.

Parameter 1010 say P6. The machine has 5 channels of servo control across three Servo Amps running 5 Servo Motors. The cabling is labeled (X -T) (Z - B) and (A) with A being the live tool motor and T the Turret as you'd expect. The Turret is considered as 5 on the control screen plus there is a C. There are twin spindles both using Built-In Motors. I've noticed that on this machine both Main and Sub Spindles share the same C axis position screen. PMM is not to be found.

I do have every manual the machine came with including the original build sheet and the original parameter settings including T, K and D settings, but no descriptions like you find in the back of a ladder manual. I was given a copy of a ladder manual for a slightly newer Mori SL153 - 303 series MSG-501 that so far seems close. I did notice on the very last page that was all in Japanese it said MSC-501 like mine.

Just gave it another couple tries. Both failed. I did remember the Diagnostics pages this time and went though finding the Motion and Waiting for Finish signals both high as expected. Also double checked the Unclamp X and Y signals and both were where they should be. About the only thing I noticed was On Diag 300 Servo Error the number(s) there were vibrating if you know what I mean. Seems they were for all axis if I'm remembering that right. Though Aixs 5 for sure. After I manually reset the Turret that vibrating number phenomenon was gone. Perhaps not anything.

I have about 30 more parts to run. Customer already got what he needed so I'm going to keep investigating the ladder a little each time the fail comes around.

Thanks for the help. This is one of those things that just has to be fixed. Then it's on to the pneumatic parts kicker hanging the parts catcher cycle after the kick, but that's a story for another day.

Dave

I have a Hardinge T51 with an Fanuc 18t control. Occasionally I have a similar problem with the turret, however it’s reverse of your issue. It doesn’t sense that the turret is clamped. On this machine, it has a servo to rotate the turret, but uses a proximity sensor to confirm the turret is seated on the curvic. I replaced the switch, and adjusted it close, far away as I can, and kind of medium. Regardless, when cold, that machine sometimes still doesn’t get a confirm signal. However if I write a short program with only tool changes, it never hangs up on that program. Doesn’t make any sense. So now I just warm the turret up by rotating it continually through random stations for 1-3 minutes then it’s fine for the rest of the day. Basically tho, does your machine use a proximity sensor/switch to sense when it’s in/out? Because that switch may need adjustment. I also have a Mori SL35 that when first purchased would only index to 4-5 out of 10 stations successfully. I just took the back cover off of the turret body, and slide the prox switch slightly closer and never a problem since.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In DGN 300 what the the "jitter" amount for the T axis when it was trying to move? This is tickling some distant memory about if the servo is oscillating too much at stop it won't respond to a command. Any chance that there is excessive backlash in the turret drive mechanism?

DGN 300 was sitting at 4 while the program was running, when the turret faulted it started shimmering so fast one could hardly tell, but mostly looked like down to zero and back if that. An occasional - sign would flicker by.

I really think it's program related. Here's why. I finished the job so started playing around. I emptied the turret to eliminate any weight or balance issues. Didn't change a thing. Changed the tool numbers in the program... no difference. Then I eliminated everything but the initial moves in the program. No more roughing or threading cycles. Taadaah... it worked. Then I went back and added back in at least one move with the spindle turning and it stilled worked. So here's the code I was running. Me being a rookie lathe guy I might have something that's confusing the control. Only the experts can tell.

T0200(FACING TOOL)
G20G40G54G80G97G98 - Those last two G codes in the safety line are the mill operator in me trying to feel safe. :-)

G0Z0.05T0202
X1.63
G50S3000
G96S510M3
M8
G99G1X1.25F0.008
X0.065F0.014
X-0.065F0.008
G0X1.63W0.1
Z0.025
G1X1.25F0.008
X0.065F0.014
X-0.065F0.008
G0X1.63W0.1
Z0.005
G1X1.25F0.008
X0.065F0.014
X-0.065F0.008
G0X1.85W0.1
G1G41X1.63Z-0.1241F0.010
X1.2Z0.F0.006
X0.065F0.014
X-0.065F0.008
G40X-0.165W0.1M5
M9
G53X0
G53Z-5.5

M00(FLIP PART OVER)

T0200(SIDE 2 TURNING)
G20G40G54G80G99

G0Z0.075T0218
X1.43
G50S3000
G96S510M3
M8
G71U0.075R0.05(ROUGH)
G71P1Q2U0.06W0.01F0.012S510
N1G0X0.875Z0.075
G1Z-2.0133
N2X1.53Z-2.2024
G0Z0.01
X0.975
G1X0.05F0.008(FACE 1)
X-0.04F0.004
G0W0.05
X0.975
Z0.
G1X0.05F0.008(FACE 2)
X-0.04F0.004
(FINISH PASS)
G0X0.645Z0.15
G1G42Z0.05F0.01
X0.8745Z-0.065
Z-2.
X1.53Z-2.1891F0.008
G40X1.73F0.015
M9
G53X0.M5
G53Z-5.5

T0600(THREADING TOOL) HANGS RIGHT HERE.
G20G40G54G80G97G99

G0Z0.25T0606
X0.975
G97S1200M3
M8
G76P011555Q40R30
G76X0.7823Z-2.P465Q70F0.071429
M9
G53X0.
G53Z-5.5M5
/M89
T0200
M30
*******************************************
This reduced to the bare bones version worked

T0200(FACING TOOL)
G20G40G54G80G97G98

G0Z0.05T0202
X1.63
G50S3000
G96S510M3
G99G1X1.25F0.008
X0.065F0.014
X-0.065F0.008
G0X1.63W0.1
G53X0
G53Z-5.5

M01(FLIP PART OVER)

T0200(SIDE 2 TURNING)
G20G40G54G80G99

G0Z0.075T0218
X1.43
G50S3000
G96S510M3
X0.975
G1X0.05F0.008(FACE 1)
X-0.04F0.004
G0W0.05
X0.975
G53X0.M5
G53Z-5.5

T0600(THREADING TOOL)
G20G40G54G80G97G99

G0Z0.25T0606
X0.975
G97S1200M3
G4P1500
G53X0.
G53Z-5.5M5
/M89
T0200
M30

Amazing but true that some cycle is funking up the control. Ideas???

Dave

Is this the only job that you have to run on this machine?
Doo you have the same issues on any other jobs?

"Hangs Right Here"
What's it dooing again?
It indexes, but fails to re-clamp, or ???

It does it every time at this point?
But no other tool changes?

Have you manually keyed in the program under a new program number?
If so - doo you still git the exact same problem?


Just an FYI:
I have an 18T that needs to be A/C'd in the summer now.
The hot/humid weather will make it occassionally index to a wrong position, but pull the right offset, and then crash out.
It will doo it on the same tool/program every time.
The tool in each program is likely different, but once it decides which tool it's going to screw up on, it stays constant.
I will likely have to plug the A/C in any day now for the rest of the summer.
Not saying this is your issue, but it IS possible.


I have had a prox on an air cyl flicker at one point - and it would hold up the "Cycle Start" string, and to git the job done, once I had it running (if you push the green button enough times, you could git it to start between flickers) I would then put the feed to 0% and reach in through the back door (no switch) to replace tooling, and then bring the switch back up to 100% and continue on.


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

FIXED IT... It was the program. Why I"m not sure but it's something to do with the control not liking me leaving the work for a tool change while still in G1 mode. See below for the fix. I wish I knew why and if anyone has an idea about a parameter change that could alter this behavior I'm all ears.

Here's the latter part of the program with the fix highlighted.

T0200(SIDE 2 TURNING)
G20G40G54G80G99

G0Z0.075T0218
X1.43
G50S3000
G96S510M3
M8
G71U0.075R0.05(ROUGH)
G71P1Q2U0.06W0.01F0.012S510
N1G0X0.875Z0.075
G1Z-2.0133
N2X1.53Z-2.2024
G0Z0.01
X0.975
G1X0.05F0.008(FACE 1)
X-0.04F0.004
G0W0.05
X0.975
Z0.
G1X0.05F0.008(FACE 2)
X-0.04F0.004
(FINISH PASS)
G0X0.645Z0.15
G1G42Z0.05F0.01
X0.8745Z-0.065
Z-2.
X1.53Z-2.1891F0.008
G40X1.73F0.015
G0Z1. Added this one block to fix it. Brought it out of G1.
M9
G53X0.M5
G53Z-5.5

T0600(THREADING TOOL) Here's where it used to hang.
G20G40G54G80G97G99

G0Z0.25T0606
X0.975
G97S1200M3
M8
G76P011555Q40R30
G76X0.7823Z-2.P465Q70F0.071429
M9
G53X0.
G53Z-5.5M5
/M89
M30

Thanks for all the ideas. Would be very interesting to know why this was a problem.

Dave

Ox said:

Is this the only job that you have to run on this machine?
Doo you have the same issues on any other jobs?

"Hangs Right Here"
What's it dooing again?
It indexes, but fails to re-clamp, or ???

It does it every time at this point?
But no other tool changes?

Have you manually keyed in the program under a new program number?
If so - doo you still git the exact same problem?


Just an FYI:
I have an 18T that needs to be A/C'd in the summer now.
The hot/humid weather will make it occassionally index to a wrong position, but pull the right offset, and then crash out.
It will doo it on the same tool/program every time.
The tool in each program is likely different, but once it decides which tool it's going to screw up on, it stays constant.
I will likely have to plug the A/C in any day now for the rest of the summer.
Not saying this is your issue, but it IS possible.


I have had a prox on an air cyl flicker at one point - and it would hold up the "Cycle Start" string, and to git the job done, once I had it running (if you push the green button enough times, you could git it to start between flickers) I would then put the feed to 0% and reach in through the back door (no switch) to replace tooling, and then bring the switch back up to 100% and continue on.


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Click to expand...

We have central air with AC now for the building. Do you have a cabinet A/C for your Conquests you mean?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, a room A/C hanging on the cabinet door, and 4 holes punched in the sheetmetal up near the CRT, with a 4" fan drawing air through - as the control is actually above the spindle - in a cavity not reachable by the A/C without drawing it through.

Have been running the fan w/o the A/C at times, but 80*+ is said to be comming, although we haven't hardly seen 60* so far....

We don't have issues if the shop is 70* or cooler.


------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

That’s interesting. I always wondered about doing that with a window style ac, but I was concerned that too much moisture may still be in the air it blows into the cabinet. Must not be the case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Outside air doesn't git into the cabinet, other than through a vent.
It circulates the air that is already in the cabinet.

Now I doo git condensation on the outside of the cabinet sheetmetal on hot/humid days.



---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox