Learning to program a CNC lathe - FANUC Group Type A, B or C format??? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fancuku View Post
    Why would anyone want to use canned cycles for something simple like grooves? It is not anymore difficult to hand write a groove than straight OD turning or ID boring.
    Even in the case of the grooves perpendicular to the taper, as long as the tool is ground to the same angle of the taper and you know where you touched off the X and Z you can figure out the moves that it needs to make.
    I understand everyone is different and learn and do things differently. I just will never use canned cycles for grooves.

    Because to me, this is clean, and easy to read when glancing through my program:

    G75X[#512+.010]Z.125P.075Q.050R.01F.002

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    I don't know how things got so off topic, my original question is NOT about hand coding vs CAM. I would like to know if there are any advantages to creating lathe programs in Group Type A, B, or C? I appreciate all the replies, but I'd like some replies dealing with the original question.

    I do mostly prototype work with small runs of parts (100 to 500 pcs). I don't mind setting things up in CAM as it allows me to quickly change a CAD model and make a revision to the part. It also allows me to keep my g-code programs organized on the computer for documentation and back-up.

    I can set up my two lathes to utilize the Group Type of my choosing (A, B, or C) and I'd like to know if it pays to be familiar with one type over the others.

    I should also mention we may be getting a mill-turn machine in the future and I would like to learn the coding structure that best fits future plans. It seems Type B or C uses some G-code that is more similar to ones used in milling, but other than that, .

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    Quote Originally Posted by jj80909 View Post
    Hello,

    I am in the ongoing process of teaching myself to program CNC lathes (small 2 axis turning center and a tool-room lathe). I'm familiar with programming for a HAAS VMC and Milltronics knee mill, but relatively new to lathes. I've dabbled a bit with simple macros and statements to run a bar-puller and keep parts count, but nothing more advanced.


    Anyway, the question is: should I be programming in the "Group Type A" G-code (it sounds like it is most common here in the USA) or does type B, or C have advantages?

    I'm working with a FANUC controls and using a combination of HSMWorks (not that great for turning) and Fusion 360 (neither) and so I'll have to do some tweeking to the post-processor used by both.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelw View Post
    Hello Rob,

    He's referring to the three different G Code Systems that any one of which can be set via parameter. For example, System A uses X/U and Z/W for Absolute/Incremental respectively, whilst System B and C use G90/G91, typical of a Mill Control.

    Regards,

    Bill
    Quote Originally Posted by jj80909 View Post
    I don't know how things got so off topic, my original question is NOT about hand coding vs CAM. I would like to know if there are any advantages to creating lathe programs in Group Type A, B, or C? I appreciate all the replies, but I'd like some replies dealing with the original question.

    I do mostly prototype work with small runs of parts (100 to 500 pcs). I don't mind setting things up in CAM as it allows me to quickly change a CAD model and make a revision to the part. It also allows me to keep my g-code programs organized on the computer for documentation and back-up.

    I can set up my two lathes to utilize the Group Type of my choosing (A, B, or C) and I'd like to know if it pays to be familiar with one type over the others.

    I should also mention we may be getting a mill-turn machine in the future and I would like to learn the coding structure that best fits future plans. It seems Type B or C uses some G-code that is more similar to ones used in milling, but other than that, .
    It goes off topic because that is how we roll here at PM! Hell, if a thread stays on topic for the first page it is like the second coming.... hahah

    I would go with anglew on this one, use type A as that will be more familiar, that said, don't have much experience with mill-turn (type a-b-c) so can't answer that...

    Also, you made the cardinal sin of mentioning lathe and cam, seems to be a no-no around here, but I am with you on doing it in cam, especially if you are moving to mill-turn, but I don't want to stir that sh*t up again.

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    To add on a 'secondary' thought- You (OP) will see alot of different opinions here. You'll see alot of contradicting opinions here... The thing I would offer, if you listen to nothing else, is take everything you read with a grain of salt (and some common sense). We all do things differently. We all have different jobs/work expectations/materials/tolerances/machines and on and on. It is the internet, some people will troll, some will give honest feedback, some may even try to di*k with you and do something malicious, it is what it is....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jj80909 View Post
    Hello,

    I am in the ongoing process of teaching myself to program CNC lathes (small 2 axis turning center and a tool-room lathe). I'm familiar with programming for a HAAS VMC and Milltronics knee mill, but relatively new to lathes. I've dabbled a bit with simple macros and statements to run a bar-puller and keep parts count, but nothing more advanced.
    Quote Originally Posted by jj80909 View Post
    I don't know how things got so off topic.
    I suppose it was my fault it got OT. I interpreted your original post to mean you didn't know your ass from a hole in the ground, concerning Lathes. Selecting A,B or C is not "more advanced" programming, it's just a method of programming.

    Plus Fusion 360 is borderline with Windows 10. So I made an assumption. I'm sorry. Sort of.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    @ Mike; I am very fast.

    I don't mean exclusively at hand coding Machinery (though that's where the need to be, started) I mean, I am a Godamned whirlwind. I make very little scrap, usually because I need to. Using an OSP as an example, I would think just from your description of the part in post #10...I think I could have it coded in less than an hour. It would in fact take less time for me to do it in Esprit or Mastersuc, but there is considerable peripheral time with using CAM as you know. So I would think it would be comparing Keystone light to Natural light. Not even worth the argument.

    Point being that I spent years and years hand coding everything in a Job-Job shop. So I got fast.

    The only thing I use canned cycles for (on a 2x Lathe) is Drilling, and occasionally Rough Turning. The rest of the time it's long hand G0-G1-G2, but like I said you spend a few years doing it under the gun and you get fast. With all that being said, I do build and prefer to build the parts that no one else in the world wants to build. I get off on the toughest jobs around.

    R
    So modesty isn't your strong suite, eh? LoL

    Since the OP has responded (and I did answer that directly I suppose...)... thought I would jump back in.

    @rob directly- (in bold) 'whirwind' fast compared to who? Guys you have worked with, quoted times..? That is in itself subjective. I think I am pretty damn fast all around, factoring manual machining, programming, cnc setup, etc, but I have run into a few faster than me, although 50% (from my experience) of those make more scrap than I ever did so a moot point maybe.

    (italics) Yes and no, suppose it depends on your shop setup and whatnot. We do lots of families of parts so I am able to import toolpaths and re-assign geo so that is fairly fast. Also, have tools set up for "our" stuff (alum and brass) so I am not screwing around with speeds and feeds for different mats. And keep in mind for this job I "just" program, so I don;t need to bounce back and forth between machines and pc/programming room...

    Not quoted here in this post, but I also remember when I was "not allowed" to make scrap. I did job shop work for years. Can't say I miss that, but I know how to do it... Polar opp at current job- sure make 3 or 4 bad pieces getting it 'dialed' in..? , of course that is dollar peices of alum, not 100$ pieces of toolsteel. I also ran the wedm's at several places. Talk about stress! Part has all machining, heat treating, grinding, etc and then off to the wire guy! Don't screw it up now LoL

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    Because to me, this is clean, and easy to read when glancing through my program:

    G75X[#512+.010]Z.125P.075Q.050R.01F.002
    Yes, it goes back to what the individual likes/prefers.
    Personally I never liked and never use canned cycles (except threading with G92). I want to see what the tool is doing at every move so I like a block of code for every move. I can edit something if I don't like what I see. Can't really do that with canned cycles.

    Anyway, back on topic. OP should stop overthinking it and use type A.

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    @Mike, it is in fact all subjective. And relative, and perception of reality. BTW I'm working on being more humble, but it's hard when your surrounded by subjective people. . I am fast compared to everyone I've ever worked with, except one Vietnamese guy, who showed me some tricks. I do not program for other people unless needed. Everyone in the shop has their own computer station and chooses which software suits the job and the Machine. No one here is either a Mill guy or Lathe guy, no one is the crochety old fuck that runs the wire and grinders we all do it all---except those that don't. (Non Machinist types or in the so called Apprenticeship). I'm fast because I am not very limited in my ability. If a Machine goes down, I jump on another. If the Dongle subscription for one isn't up to date, I jump on another Suite. If all CNCs are down, I go manual. If RS232 is down, I can code that bitch just the same. If QC is sick, I step in use Calypso and Zeiss. If square parts need to be run, but all the Mills are chirping, I run them on a Lathe. That's why I'm fast. It doesn't have anything to do with hand motion. Plus I'm OCD about where I put things.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    @Mike, it is in fact all subjective. And relative, and perception of reality. BTW I'm working on being more humble, but it's hard when your surrounded by subjective people. . I am fast compared to everyone I've ever worked with, except one Vietnamese guy, who showed me some tricks. I do not program for other people unless needed. Everyone in the shop has their own computer station and chooses which software suits the job and the Machine. No one here is either a Mill guy or Lathe guy, no one is the crochety old fuck that runs the wire and grinders we all do it all---except those that don't. (Non Machinist types or in the so called Apprenticeship). I'm fast because I am not very limited in my ability. If a Machine goes down, I jump on another. If the Dongle subscription for one isn't up to date, I jump on another Suite. If all CNCs are down, I go manual. If RS232 is down, I can code that bitch just the same. If QC is sick, I step in use Calypso and Zeiss. If square parts need to be run, but all the Mills are chirping, I run them on a Lathe. That's why I'm fast. It doesn't have anything to do with hand motion. Plus I'm OCD about where I put things.

    R
    "I pick number B !"

    Sincere apologies to OP. I am literally the slowest human being on the planet. But as a consequence I get somewhat obsessed about 'Efficiency".

    IME If someone knows they are fast then they are fast.

    Sounds like a cool place that you work...

    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Plus I'm OCD about where I put things.
    ^^^ I'd love to hear more about that, as in the past especially prototyping stuff that's where I get completely mired.

    I know it may seem obvious to some but discipline, organization and being "OCD about where stuff is put " for those where that does not come naturally nor are large enough to have a "manned toolcrib" etc.

    Apologies for temporary "detour" but might be useful for OP also ?

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    It just means what it says....I'm not sure how to pontificate it

    Everything has a place. You just have to be accountable to that. There are some things that I use so regularly that I have little fold ups that have a "place" in my Smock pockets, but their parents are in the box. It's probably my greatest pet-peeve when I cannot find something that I know is there. I lend my Tools out ONCE---now the borrower knows that they need one of their own. I don't have a bunch of random shit that never gets used, sitting in one of the drawers in my box. My box's are considerably smaller than other guys'. I have Two-One that is static, and One that is more like a cart that I can put things on top of and roll from Machine to Machine. Both boxes have identical Tools in them.

    As far as the shop goes, we do our best to organize. One of the benefits of getting quarterly bonuses. I have zero patience for fucking around, I shit before I get to work, and get my coffee on my way in. I eat my lunch at the Machine while working. I minimize how many steps I take. If I need to go get something, I try and get more, even if it's for other people. I don't talk to office types. My phone is not on my person.

    Get it? OCD it's good for anxiety and expectations--bad for the soul though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    It just means what it says....I'm not sure how to pontificate it

    Everything has a place. You just have to be accountable to that. There are some things that I use so regularly that I have little fold ups that have a "place" in my Smock pockets, but their parents are in the box. It's probably my greatest pet-peeve when I cannot find something that I know is there. I lend my Tools out ONCE---now the borrower knows that they need one of their own. I don't have a bunch of random shit that never gets used, sitting in one of the drawers in my box. My box's are considerably smaller than other guys'. I have Two-One that is static, and One that is more like a cart that I can put things on top of and roll from Machine to Machine. Both boxes have identical Tools in them.

    As far as the shop goes, we do our best to organize. One of the benefits of getting quarterly bonuses. I have zero patience for fucking around, I shit before I get to work, and get my coffee on my way in. I eat my lunch at the Machine while working. I minimize how many steps I take. If I need to go get something, I try and get more, even if it's for other people. I don't talk to office types. My phone is not on my person.

    Get it? OCD it's good for anxiety and expectations--bad for the soul though.
    My Pope hat is a rental...

    Seems pretty "Zen" to me. Not quite Marie Kondo but general standard / zero tolerance for things than can erode the day.

    Quarterly bonuses that seems like a very good driver. Hmmmm

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    It just means what it says....I'm not sure how to pontificate it

    Everything has a place. You just have to be accountable to that. There are some things that I use so regularly that I have little fold ups that have a "place" in my Smock pockets, but their parents are in the box. It's probably my greatest pet-peeve when I cannot find something that I know is there. I lend my Tools out ONCE---now the borrower knows that they need one of their own. I don't have a bunch of random shit that never gets used, sitting in one of the drawers in my box. My box's are considerably smaller than other guys'. I have Two-One that is static, and One that is more like a cart that I can put things on top of and roll from Machine to Machine. Both boxes have identical Tools in them.

    As far as the shop goes, we do our best to organize. One of the benefits of getting quarterly bonuses. I have zero patience for fucking around, I shit before I get to work, and get my coffee on my way in. I eat my lunch at the Machine while working. I minimize how many steps I take. If I need to go get something, I try and get more, even if it's for other people. I don't talk to office types. My phone is not on my person.

    Get it? OCD it's good for anxiety and expectations--bad for the soul though.
    That would be great to work in a shop like that. Even back in my more job shop days I have never seen anything like you describe. Every man for himself! I think the bonus probably drives most of that. BTW, not sure if the wire comment was directed at me, but I also have ran/programmed/setup lots of manual mills, lathes, grinders, blanchard, radial drills, etc and cnc lathes, mills (3-4-5 axis), mill turn (limited), multiple cad/cam softwares so I "get" the whole multitasking thing...

    The only thing that pissed me off about being able to do lots of things is not being appreciated. I remember a very distinct time when I had both the wires going (yes I know they don't need sittin' like a lathe or mill), and was running a mill and lathe. Just happened to have a minute or two when the mill and lathe were in a cut and watched the lathe for a bit leaning on the workbench. Boss saw that (me leaning of course, not 4 machines running courtesy of me) and says "hey mike I need..." NOPE I have all these going, this will be done in a minute then I need to check this/load the next part... And this isn't about me being lazy or whatever you may think, it was about him being a cheap ass ballbuster that nothing or no one was good enough or fast enough. I think when I start to get a little bored programming all day I just need to remember those times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fancuku View Post
    Why would anyone want to use canned cycles for something simple like grooves? It is not anymore difficult to hand write a groove than straight OD turning or ID boring.
    Even in the case of the grooves perpendicular to the taper, as long as the tool is ground to the same angle of the taper and you know where you touched off the X and Z you can figure out the moves that it needs to make.
    I understand everyone is different and learn and do things differently. I just will never use canned cycles for grooves.
    Since OP's question is answered (should use System A for 2-axis lathe), we may discuss other things.

    For a single groove, without pecking, G75 need not be used.
    But, if the width of the groove is larger than the width of the grooving tool, and small pecks must be used, how many lines would be needed with G00/G01 combinations? G75 would take just two lines (plus the initial positioning move).

    G75, however, won't peck at an angle, therefore, cannot be used in OP's case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinha View Post
    Since OP's question is answered (should use System A for 2-axis lathe), we may discuss other things.

    For a single groove, without pecking, G75 need not be used.
    But, if the width of the groove is larger than the width of the grooving tool, and small pecks must be used, how many lines would be needed with G00/G01 combinations? G75 would take just two lines (plus the initial positioning move).

    G75, however, won't peck at an angle, therefore, cannot be used in OP's case.

    Curious, I'm only familiar with my Mitsubishi controls, how is a 2 line G75 laid out? My example above is only one line, and that's the only way I know how to program it.

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    G75 R_ ; (Radial retraction)
    G75 X_ Z_ P_ Q_ F_ ; (X and Z end of the groove; Peck length; Lateral shift; Feedrate)

    Both 1-block and 2-block versions are available on Fanucs. Selected through a parameter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't know, we machine it and it goes into the lab for various electronic gizmos and testing then to the customer.
    I do parts that sound similar to this. A camera body focal tube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    The only thing that pissed me off about being able to do lots of things is not being appreciated. I remember a very distinct time when I had both the wires going (yes I know they don't need sittin' like a lathe or mill), and was running a mill and lathe. Just happened to have a minute or two when the mill and lathe were in a cut and watched the lathe for a bit leaning on the workbench. Boss saw that (me leaning of course, not 4 machines running courtesy of me) and says "hey mike I need..." NOPE I have all these going, this will be done in a minute then I need to check this/load the next part... And this isn't about me being lazy or whatever you may think, it was about him being a cheap ass ballbuster that nothing or no one was good enough or fast enough. I think when I start to get a little bored programming all day I just need to remember those times
    I'm almost positive, I have worked for that same guy a number of times. Not sure if he gets plastic surgery and stalks me or what. Utah, Oregon, Nevada, I don't understand how he finds me. Even further with Alice---I had to figure out that it wasn't about the money, it was about doing what I do best for the sake of doing it. Waiting for someone else to appreciate me is just going to end up with me in a wood box, wishing something would have been different. I live for the moments. I do the work for the exhilaration of doing things that sane people don't normally do. But I don't tolerate people who waste my time. (regularly that includes the owner)

    R

    No I wasn't directing the WEDM guy thing at you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G_Code View Post
    I do parts that sound similar to this. A camera body focal tube.
    The designer may not be aware of manufacturing complexities (For example, he might be an electronics engineer). As a result, he may include unnecessary but complex features.
    In this case, grooves normal to the taper might have appeared more logical to him!


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