Thread: Looking at Advanced/Mighty VMC 520

Originally Posted by DavidScott

Hours can be reset so don't put any value on what you find. Plus do the hours count above 9,999 on these controls? Being a box way machine check for head nod to make sure the wear isn't too much to deal with. Not having support from the MTB is a pretty big deal IMO. Being able to call them up for a PDF on the procedure to fix some little problem is a real lifesaver, let alone parts.

Thanks for your response!
Yeah, I agree that I don’t want to be stuck with a big chunk of scrap in my garage.

Mighty said that they have some replacement parts for the machine:

“Thank you for your inquiry. We carry a number of replacement parts including clamp cylinders, spindle components, lubrication units that can be direct replacement or adapted to fit the machine. The operation manual has been shared with you via google drive. Additional information can be furnished upon request.“

Thanks for your response!

Originally Posted by hanermo

Be real.

Whaddaya-gonna do where the mechanics have some more slop at some point geometrically ?
They probably do, but so what.

Around a few k, 4k$, there is nothing to negotiate down.

Very true!
That’s one of my big worries.

Originally Posted by hanermo

Old CNCs are a crapshoot, where any single issue can cost 1-2-4k$, and is somewhat likely to appear once put into service again (stressed by heat).
A fadal is good because it is more modular than most and most modules can be repaired or swapped easy(ish) or cheap(ish).

New screws, linear bearing blocks, bearings, are all easy to do, for not too much money.
Fairly fast.

Yeah.
I could just pass and bide my time and see what newer machines come up that are also small enough footprint physically and within my limited budget.

Originally Posted by hanermo

Value:
If the control runs, as-is, the machine has some usage value.
When, not if, the control fails, then what ?

How much time in hrs and $$ in parts will it take to get it operational again ?
Find someone who has one.
Ask the current Manufacturers rep. for references with the same type of machine tool.

If they won´t give You a reference, it means they see Your future trade as a negative value.
What does that tell You ?

Good suggestion!

Originally Posted by hanermo

Forget retrofits.
If You personally havent done one, or built a VMC, You are unlikely to have a realistic understanding of a proper retrofit near industrial needs.
Simply wiring, connecting, getting to work a 3-axis is 200+ IO plus a huge amount of sw stuff in arcane languages.

Yeah, I have no interest in trying to do a retrofit, especially on a 24+ year old machine.

Backlash in ballscrews and play/slop in axes are a concern on such an old machine, for sure.

But since my plan of winning the lottery isn’t panning out, my budget remains small :-)

Does the TYPE FCA320M shown here (upper left)
indicate the control model?

A variation on the 300m family of controls.

ya never said if the current owner has the wiring diagram and ladder? if it croaks, you're dead without them. Also, is there a printed parameter list or an electronic copy of it available??? don't leave home without them!!!

Originally Posted by Vancbiker

A variation on the 300m family of controls.

Thanks!
I figured that was probably the case.

I had a mill like that, it was made by Mitsubishi and I liked it.

Myself, I would shoot for a max of $5k all in, sitting in my shop if I was ready to make parts and that would do it for me.

If you can get a cheap tow company to move it and you get the important books with it I would go for it.

I wouldn't bother with an indicator. If all sounds fine it can't be that bad. Check that it's been getting lube.


Do a visual check that it has been getting oil/grease and the spindle taper looks good, it changes a tool, make a lowball cash offer and set up the move.

I like to ask key questions that might trip them up if they are lying. Like how often they fill the oil tank or what kind of grease they pump in the ways. Like if it's a grease machine in a shop full of oil machines and there's no grease gun around anywhere that might be a problem.

Originally Posted by Dan from Oakland

ya never said if the current owner has the wiring diagram and ladder? if it croaks, you're dead without them. Also, is there a printed parameter list or an electronic copy of it available??? don't leave home without them!!!

Comes with the manuals I posted further back in the thread.
Not sure what’s inside those manuals besides/on top of what the covers say.

The operators manual PDF I got from Mighty shows a lot. Still scanning through it

Google Drive: Sign-in

Originally Posted by Garwood

I had a mill like that, it was made by Mitsubishi and I liked it.

Myself, I would shoot for a max of $5k all in, sitting in my shop if I was ready to make parts and that would do it for me.

If you can get a cheap tow company to move it and you get the important books with it I would go for it.

Thanks for your response!

Machine is 3600 Kg (7920 pounds) and 6 feet by 6 feet, which is what I’m looking for in small footprint and Z axis motor and cable carrier can be unbolted to make it slide under my garage door.

The seller doesn’t have a forklift, but I’m wondering if someone in the neighborhood has a 10000 pound forklift

Originally Posted by Garwood

I wouldn't bother with an indicator. If all sounds fine it can't be that bad. Check that it's been getting lube.


Do a visual check that it has been getting oil/grease and the spindle taper looks good, it changes a tool, make a lowball cash offer and set up the move.

I have already verified that:
-Oiler is definitely working
-carousel works
-air blast and tool changer is working
-spindle and axes all sound good
-box ways on Z look good
-coolant/pump works
-CRT is good with no burn in
-no audible air leaks
-interior/enclosure looks good condition

Originally Posted by Garwood

I like to ask key questions that might trip them up if they are lying. Like how often they fill the oil tank or what kind of grease they pump in the ways. Like if it's a grease machine in a shop full of oil machines and there's no grease gun around anywhere that might be a problem.

They seem pretty honest, reasonable so far and willing to answer questions.

Originally Posted by Garwood

If you can get a cheap tow company to move it and you get the important books with it I would go for it.

So, you mean like a flatbed tow truck and winch?
I can borrow some machinery skates and I have a couple of 5500 pound pallet jacks.

I know a rigger would be $1200+ probably

Yeah, a rollback tow truck. I would not mess with pallet jacks. Just use decent skates. You'll have to reset the skates as it goes on the bed.

Originally Posted by Vancbiker

A variation on the 300m family of controls.

IIRC Mighty used the 320AMR control in this vintage but it's got to be an old machine.
If badged a Comet it's a 320. If it's a Viper it is a 520 AMR.

Originally Posted by Garwood

Yeah, a rollback tow truck. I would not mess with pallet jacks. Just use decent skates. You'll have to reset the skates as it goes on the bed.

Interesting.

So, I’ve got some quotes from riggers ($2500, $1500, and some likely higher).
I called around to some tow places and first one said $750, then I got a couple at $500 and one at $400.
I’ve seen videos of people using rollback trucks to move smaller machines like manual mills, lathes, ... by winch dragging them onto the deck.
I’ve never seen anybody use skates onto one, but I’m going to search.

The $1500 rigger seems like a decent price.


I’ve always moved my own small machines (mills, lathes, ...) using a pallet jack and straps and a hydraulic lift bed trailer, but I know this machine is beyond my ability to do that.

Originally Posted by JCarroll

IIRC Mighty used the 320AMR control in this vintage but it's got to be an old machine.
If badged a Comet it's a 320. If it's a Viper it is a 520 AMR.

Thanks!

How do you identify it for sure?
Is there a screen/page you can go to on the console?
Displayed on power up?

Picture of the control:



Pic of electronics in the cabinet:

The "FCA320M" means a 320M. Mits had the 300 as a series with lathe, mill, and laser variants. Within each of those variants were models with different capabilities. I don't know the specifics, but typically the higher the number indicated more or different capabilities over the lower model numbers.

The highest model I have done some work with was the 330. Biggest difference with it that I knew of was the ability to have a custom U/I created by the machine builder to supplement or even replace the Mitsu U/I.

As Vanc said, that is a 320 control.

I think you have a good deal on your hands and should buy the machine. I bought my Brother Speedio for just over $100k, and sold my old Leadwell with a Mitsubishi M50 control for about 1/10th that amount. Honestly, when selling old machines, the seller just wants to get rid of it. You don't really want to be holding it to new-machine standards for $4k. A lot of sub-$10k machines are ones where the owner thinks it's really worth $20k but it's got all sorts of problems that the owner thinks would cost $20k+ to fix if they called in a repair guy, so they sell it for $5k thinking it's a deal. In reality, the machine was really worth less than $10k in good shape, so their "deal" isn't a deal at all. In this case, it looks like everything works and you get some holders and a vise, so that sounds like a great deal to me.

As for the parameters/ladder, you don't really need them because you can download them from the machine. But make SURE you do that before it's disconnected from power. When you get it, change out the battery in the control for peace of mind, and then just run it.

I would strongly recommend anyone buying older equipment to go with Mitsubishi control machines. Mitsu is GREAT about support. You never paid them a dime and the guy who did was the builder, and paid them 20-30 years ago... yet Mitsubishi will still support you by phone for FREE whenever you call, and have all sorts of spare parts available, and you can almost always find any NC control, drive, motor or cable on eBay used at any given time. Contrast that with Fanuc who doesn't want to even talk to you unless you start handing over $$. Sure, there's at least as much/more spare parts online, but you realistically give up factory support.

A 3-axis VMC isn't a complex machine. Not much can go wrong that you can't fix yourself on the mechanical side with off-the-shelf parts (bearings, etc). Even things like ballscrews/nuts can be rebuilt if needed if you can't get factory parts. And anything that really needs factory parts like castings are going to be so expensive that you wouldn't spend the money buying them from the builder, even if they were available.

Buy the machine, learn it, make money with it, and if the whole CNC thing works out for you, use the money you earn to buy a newer/better machine later on. You can likely get 5 years more out of this one without problems, and sell it and get at least half your money back, even if it's just parting it out if something happens that's beyond economical repair.

Thanks!
So, not sure how applicable the 300/300V manuals are that they said would come.

Originally Posted by Vancbiker

The "FCA320M" means a 320M. Mits had the 300 as a series with lathe, mill, and laser variants. Within each of those variants were models with different capabilities. I don't know the specifics, but typically the higher the number indicated more or different capabilities over the lower model numbers.

The highest model I have done some work with was the 330. Biggest difference with it that I knew of was the ability to have a custom U/I created by the machine builder to supplement or even replace the Mitsu U/I.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for your detailed response!

Super useful!

So, is there a short procedure for downloading ladder?

Originally Posted by SRT Mike

As Vanc said, that is a 320 control.

I think you have a good deal on your hands and should buy the machine. I bought my Brother Speedio for just over $100k, and sold my old Leadwell with a Mitsubishi M50 control for about 1/10th that amount. Honestly, when selling old machines, the seller just wants to get rid of it. You don't really want to be holding it to new-machine standards for $4k. A lot of sub-$10k machines are ones where the owner thinks it's really worth $20k but it's got all sorts of problems that the owner thinks would cost $20k+ to fix if they called in a repair guy, so they sell it for $5k thinking it's a deal. In reality, the machine was really worth less than $10k in good shape, so their "deal" isn't a deal at all. In this case, it looks like everything works and you get some holders and a vise, so that sounds like a great deal to me.

As for the parameters/ladder, you don't really need them because you can download them from the machine. But make SURE you do that before it's disconnected from power. When you get it, change out the battery in the control for peace of mind, and then just run it.

I would strongly recommend anyone buying older equipment to go with Mitsubishi control machines. Mitsu is GREAT about support. You never paid them a dime and the guy who did was the builder, and paid them 20-30 years ago... yet Mitsubishi will still support you by phone for FREE whenever you call, and have all sorts of spare parts available, and you can almost always find any NC control, drive, motor or cable on eBay used at any given time. Contrast that with Fanuc who doesn't want to even talk to you unless you start handing over $$. Sure, there's at least as much/more spare parts online, but you realistically give up factory support.

A 3-axis VMC isn't a complex machine. Not much can go wrong that you can't fix yourself on the mechanical side with off-the-shelf parts (bearings, etc). Even things like ballscrews/nuts can be rebuilt if needed if you can't get factory parts. And anything that really needs factory parts like castings are going to be so expensive that you wouldn't spend the money buying them from the builder, even if they were available.

Buy the machine, learn it, make money with it, and if the whole CNC thing works out for you, use the money you earn to buy a newer/better machine later on. You can likely get 5 years more out of this one without problems, and sell it and get at least half your money back, even if it's just parting it out if something happens that's beyond economical repair.

Not 100% sure on the M320. On the M50, press DIAG IN/OUT, then press MENU soft key twice, then press OUTPUT. You see a screen showing the various options.

May as well output everything. Type #1 in "#" column and for the DATA column enter "ALL" and press input (it will output over RS-232). Type #2 (for tool data) in # field and leave DATA field blank and hit input again. Then enter #3 (parameters) and nothing in DATA and hit input. Then #5 (common variables), nothing in DATA and hit input. Then type 30 in the # field, nothing in DATA and hit input (outputs macro programs). It should show it as it outputs and say "DATA OUT COMPLETE" when done.

Then hit E-stop, and go to the NC controller in the back of the cabinet and turn the CS2 swith (small rotary switch, usually under a cover plate) to position 1. This stops the ladder. Then type 99 in the # field and "ALL1" in the DATA field, and press INPUT. Then put 99 in the # field and "ALL2" in the DATA field and hit input. Then 99 again in the # field and "ALL3" in the DATA field and input. Turn the CS2 switch back to 0 to re-start the ladder and dis-engage E-stop, machine will be back up and running.

ALL1 is parameters, PLC constants, timers, work offsets, R-registers, PLC latches and switches, spindle and axis parameters, communication settings and all the critical stuff you need.

ALL2 is tool offsets, common variables, too life data, etc.

ALL3 is the ladder.

[QUOTE=rpseguin;3423524]Thanks!

How do you identify it for sure?
Is there a screen/page you can go to on the console?
Displayed on power up?


I might know the machine and could have installed it.
I supported the dealer in San Jose for a couple of years from my office in Los Angeles.
Send me a PM.
Was this machine originally delivered to Santa Clara?