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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I run a lot of the Maritool standard 3 flute cutters and have had vary good luck with them ,, I tryed there roughers and also found they snap if you push them hard ,, I went back to running the TAZ roughers from lakeshore ,, one nice thing about the Taz cutters is you you get to Z depth super fast with them ,, I program most parts at a 30* down feed slope and have gone as hi as 45* ... I have NEVER had one weld up.
    Interesting, I like the Maritool corncobs better than the LakeShore TAS. But not a fan of the HTC cutters that Mari sell as their standard 3 flute, I like Destiny better. Go figure, I wonder what we're doing different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Another recommendation. Typically you want the shortest tool holders and tools. I have an exception to that to make your life a little easier. When acquiring small Diameter (ER16 and under) holders, get a little longer gage length (around 80mm, no less than 60mm) to give yourself something to hold when loading in the 14, 21 or 22 Tool magazines. Especially holding drills or taps, a little extra length won't be a big performance difference, but you will be glad when you are loading the tools!
    This is excellent advice! I have a kung-fu grip, and still struggle with the really stubby little tools

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    Interesting, I like the Maritool corncobs better than the LakeShore TAS. But not a fan of the HTC cutters that Mari sell as their standard 3 flute, I like Destiny better. Go figure, I wonder what we're doing different.
    Different machine for starters. You are running a Brother correct? 30 Taper machines don't lie. They will tell you very quickly if a cutter is free cutting and efficient. I remember we did a Tool show in Vegas and SwiftCarb was there. I think it was Swift himself who came over and insisted that his cutter would completely outperform the Hanita 1/2" rougher I like and was running. I told him his cutters look good but that I had serious doubts. We put his tool in and the machine howled and screeched like a banshee. Nice, controlled machining sounds with the Hanita...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    BTW, you have 22 tools and lightning-fast tool changes -- why fret about saving a tool pocket or tool change?

    Regards.

    Mike
    For me is far more about having setup people do as little work as possible.pockets are so valuable to us. Sure it's just one tool, but that's hours of setup time a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    That would defeat a lot of the benefit of a double-angle cutter -- being able to chamfer an edge that has limited Z clearance due to vise jaws or other part features. Yes, you can chamfer with the first .02" of a 90* chamfer mill, but it's like using a .04" cutter - you have to go real slow to get a nice chamfer. With a regular 3/8" double-angle cutter, you can be .01" up on the flutes and you are cutting with a .27" diameter tool. Also, many 4-flute chamfer mills have only 2 effective flutes at the tip, as 2 of the 4 flues are relieved at the tip.

    Regards.

    Mike
    Certainly true it would defeat THAT benefit, but it would add additional benefits elsewhere. I'm not arguing by any means, but I find typically most things for me that need chamfers close to the jaw happens on op two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Not sure what you mean by a "good" spotting / chamfering tool, but we use these -

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06298541

    The tip diameter is about .005" so they work well if programmed exact diameter for spotting (IE .08 deep will give you about .163-.166" diameter), and chamfering works well enough. Of course we aren't trying to run anything wide open/absolute min cycle time...
    I'm not sure what I mean by it either... Ha. I definitely want 4 flute minimum for a chamfer mill. It might not matter however with this machine, I think the pallet aspects will more than make up for any slightly slower machining processes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRIAN.T View Post
    I'm not sure what I mean by it either... Ha. I definitely want 4 flute minimum for a chamfer mill. It might not matter however with this machine, I think the pallet aspects will more than make up for any slightly slower machining processes.
    It's amazing how much difference the pallet setup makes. My first Brother was a 450 hi-torque dual contact like your machine. I was amazed at how much more work I got done. I run mostly short production aluminum work on this machine.
    I use roughers to keep the chip volume down - the rougher Frank recommended is really good. It lasts a long time. If you only use non-roughers chip volume can build up and cause the tank to overflow. I use Mari-Tool holders mostly, as I found them early. I like the 229 series drills from MA Ford for my work. Tapping is slam dunk using rigid holders. Using ER20 and larger collets, or anything else close to that, be sure to torque them. The Hi-Torque stops quick enough they will loosen if you aren't serious about getting them tight.
    Clean the filter canister and change the filter once in a while. Change the batteries once a year or so, although they will last longer than that. I use HSM paths as much as possible.
    When new, I had a bit of trouble getting used to getting the feel for loading the carousel. Whoever is loading, make sure they get the feel. When training a new guy, I put a wooden box to catch any tools under the spindle and run tool changes to make sure they are all loaded correctly.
    16" Orange vises with a riser, set up as double jaw are really nice. I also use Chick vises, the newer version, as they come set up as a reverse vise. The Orange can also be set up as a single reverse, and this is also super handy. So easy to load due to access, it's right there at a good height. I also use the 4" double vises from Glacern. I made risers and had them anodized. They can also be set up as a reverse single.
    Hope it goes well and you have a lot of success!
    ETA: I was so happy with this 450 I ended up with another one, just a standard 10K with 14 tools. I run a lot of different jobs on this one. Never disappointed with Brother or Yamazen. You can easily set up a wifi connection to them for program handling. My life is a lot easier with these machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    It's amazing how much difference the pallet setup makes. My first Brother was a 450 hi-torque dual contact like your machine. I was amazed at how much more work I got done. I run mostly short production aluminum work on this machine.
    I use roughers to keep the chip volume down - the rougher Frank recommended is really good. It lasts a long time. If you only use non-roughers chip volume can build up and cause the tank to overflow. I use Mari-Tool holders mostly, as I found them early. I like the 229 series drills from MA Ford for my work. Tapping is slam dunk using rigid holders. Using ER20 and larger collets, or anything else close to that, be sure to torque them. The Hi-Torque stops quick enough they will loosen if you aren't serious about getting them tight.
    Clean the filter canister and change the filter once in a while. Change the batteries once a year or so, although they will last longer than that. I use HSM paths as much as possible.
    When new, I had a bit of trouble getting used to getting the feel for loading the carousel. Whoever is loading, make sure they get the feel. When training a new guy, I put a wooden box to catch any tools under the spindle and run tool changes to make sure they are all loaded correctly.
    16" Orange vises with a riser, set up as double jaw are really nice. I also use Chick vises, the newer version, as they come set up as a reverse vise. The Orange can also be set up as a single reverse, and this is also super handy. So easy to load due to access, it's right there at a good height. I also use the 4" double vises from Glacern. I made risers and had them anodized. They can also be set up as a reverse single.
    Hope it goes well and you have a lot of success!
    ETA: I was so happy with this 450 I ended up with another one, just a standard 10K with 14 tools. I run a lot of different jobs on this one. Never disappointed with Brother or Yamazen. You can easily set up a wifi connection to them for program handling. My life is a lot easier with these machines.
    This is a goddamn excellent response. I really appreciate the advice. I really feel like this machine is going to be game changing for us.

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    I’ve told this story a few times, so whatever it’s worth 7 years ago we got our first Brother...an S2Dn. It was going to be (and still is) dedicated to making one part out of 4140...a lot of HSM milling tool paths. I tried a few ER32 collet chucks, a Nikken milling chuck, Kaiser (I think) hydraulic chuck, and some Nikken double angle collet chuck thing, and a stupid cheap boring old nothing fancy side-lock end mill holder. Not only did the stupid cheap boring old nothing fancy side-lock end mill holder (from Mari) have the best tool life on average for our 3/8” SGS end mill but it was also the most consistent out of all those, regarding tool life.

    Now that was for me and my application but just do NOT underestimate the stupid cheap boring old nothing fancy side-lock end mill holders that salespeople will tell you have terrible runout and blah blah blah.

    Oh yeah, short is best but the maximum stubbiness leaves nothing to load/unload the tool with other than the mill....unless that broke off in which case there almost nothing to get the holder out with! It’s up to you to determine if the reduced holdability of the stubby is worth the potential increase in rigidity.

    Don’t forget to hit the ATC button after manually loading a tool with the spindle up. You gotta bring it down before hitting cycle start or you’ll get an alarm...you’ll see what I’m talking about. Haha!

    Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Different machine for starters. You are running a Brother correct? 30 Taper machines don't lie. They will tell you very quickly if a cutter is free cutting and efficient. I remember we did a Tool show in Vegas and SwiftCarb was there. I think it was Swift himself who came over and insisted that his cutter would completely outperform the Hanita 1/2" rougher I like and was running. I told him his cutters look good but that I had serious doubts. We put his tool in and the machine howled and screeched like a banshee. Nice, controlled machining sounds with the Hanita...
    Yep on Brother, and free cutting charateristics would make sense.

    Eaglemike, is there a tutorial on setting up wifi, or could you go over the process?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    Yep on Brother, and free cutting charateristics would make sense.

    Eaglemike, is there a tutorial on setting up wifi, or could you go over the process?
    I just went through this on my Speedio. There's no tutorial and the manual kinda sucks.

    You can hardwire Ethernet to the machine. There's a port in the electrical control panel -- IIRC it's labeled "XNET." Top left corner, I think?

    If you want to do WiFi, get a wireless to Ethernet bridge. I used a TP-Link N300. You want to configure it in "bridge" mode. (It comes with perfectly serviceable instructions.) It will connect to your WiFi network and extend it onto the wired Ethernet port. Then you have to go configure the mill. On mine, DATA BANK, Comm. Parameters, turn DHCP on (set to 1). You should then be able to connect to it via a web browser.

    If you want to upload files, it uses FTP for that. There are two different FTP username and password settings in the config! One of them is for connecting to the control ("Server user name" and "Password as server") -- you'll have to set those. The other set is for using the control as a client to connect to an external FTP server.

    Hope that helps!

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    RE: wifi
    I posted it somewhere in the past. I'll try to find my notes.
    I use a TPlink, configured as a client. Directions are in the box, pretty much. There is a USB port in the cabinet for power, and the ethernet port for communication. They're on the left side of the control cabinet, pretty much next to each other..
    Plug it into a desktop or laptop to set the parameters in the TPlink, before installing in the cabinet. You'll need to set the parameters in the machine databank also. IIRC they are about $30 from Amazon. I think I got a bad one once, but I keep a couple of extras on hand.
    I'll try to find the details and post up. The Yamazen guys did the first couple when they were back to install another machine. I did set up a separate wireless network out in the shop to get better coverage.
    Brother has a very cool drag and drop utility program for communicating. You can even make folders in the machine from your computer.

    Back to the 30 taper - for end mills, I tool use pretty much sidelock only. Yes, a touch harder to get in and out of the changer than a longer collet holder, but worth it. My cycle times have gone down a bunch since switching to Brother and using HSM paths. One of my products is a small 17-4 h900 part. I run the main operation on a 700, and the first and last on 450's whenever possible. I used to run it on a VF2, using larger tools. Now the tools cost less, and last longer, in addition to shorter cycle times. One thing to remember is these Brother machines do fine on a 30 amp breaker.
    I really think the 450 is a great size of machine. I used to think about loading the larger (conventional vertical) tables as much as possible. Now I'll run op1 on one side, and op2 on the other, resulting in finished parts faster.

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    FYI- For the stubby tools, it is way easier to get them in/out of the turret if they are in the spindle position. Trying to work with them on the +/-3 flappers is a nightmare.

    Also, I wish Brother would put the pocket number on the flapper instead of the graphic on the turret body. Parallax from the operator position makes me screw up by +1 all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    FYI- For the stubby tools, it is way easier to get them in/out of the turret if they are in the spindle position. Trying to work with them on the +/-3 flappers is a nightmare.

    Also, I wish Brother would put the pocket number on the flapper instead of the graphic on the turret body. Parallax from the operator position makes me screw up by +1 all the time.
    To me, it's worse on the 700 and 500 compared to the pallet machines
    There is a "enable XY movement" key on the 450. If one is in manual mode, presses that key, and then the tool change key, it will retract then move close to the the right side door on the 22 tool magazine, or put the tool right in front of the window for the 14 tool magazine. I didn't know that at first, and was manually jogging it into position. Much easier with the key.
    Also, the Brother sheet metal is a lot easier to deal with than my experience with my Haas machines. They seem to be designed to be easy to service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    To me, it's worse on the 700 and 500 compared to the pallet machines
    Fun fact; for all my time around a wide variety of Speedios, I've never even laid eyes on an R series machine! I've seen every S series, an the M140, but never an R.

    Though I guess the real baseball card to round out a proper collection of Speedio spotting is an F600; I think there are only 2-3 in the country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Fun fact; for all my time around a wide variety of Speedios, I've never even laid eyes on an R series machine! I've seen every S series, an the M140, but never an R.

    Though I guess the real baseball card to round out a proper collection of Speedio spotting is an F600; I think there are only 2-3 in the country?
    I know there are 2 showroom machines with pretty heavy discounts on them... So you may be right. We're considering one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRIAN.T View Post

    For my "large" end mill, I'm going with a 3 flute 1/2 destiny 1" length of cut. However I'm thinking I might want to look into chip breaker type end mills for general purpose. I actually think something like the kor5 might be a good choice, more flutes, faster feeds, chip breakers. Perhaps 1" loc on a 1/2 in a bt30 is tool much?
    Save your money,don't buy the Kor5, and get the Destiny Diamondback.

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    For your machine a 1/2' 1" LOC is fine. Do all the roughing with a corncob. I use parameters that help my tools last forever, like conservative width of cut - inside radii need less (and less feed rate) due to geometry,right? BrotherFrank and others on here have the actual formula for that, I WAG it. It really depends on how hard you want to push. With short sidelock holders, dual contact, it'll be plenty stiff. Unless you hit the vise or break it, tools will last. A user on this forum, zero divide, sells some affordable and very cool software that helps with speeds and feeds. I use BobCad most of the time since I'm most familiar with it, and use their adaptive roughing for everything I can. With the corncob chips are dense. I actually ended up going a fair bit faster than the software and the tool supplier said on my 17-4 job by keep side load down, lotsa flutes, and a corner radius on the end mill.
    Like some others here I put some fine mesh screen from mcmaster-carr in the coolant tank to keep chips on top. Even if you don't do that, the chip bins are pretty easy to clean. The only problem is first world - it won't be long until you find you are making more chips than before,and need to handle that.
    Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    My cycle times have gone down a bunch since switching to Brother and using HSM paths. One of my products is a small 17-4 h900 part. I run the main operation on a 700, and the first and last on 450's whenever possible. I used to run it on a VF2, using larger tools. Now the tools cost less, and last longer, in addition to shorter cycle times. One thing to remember is these Brother machines do fine on a 30 amp breaker.
    I really think the 450 is a great size of machine. I used to think about loading the larger (conventional vertical) tables as much as possible. Now I'll run op1 on one side, and op2 on the other, resulting in finished parts faster.
    Eaglemike and Trochoidial, thanks for the info on wifi, I'll give it shot.

    Mike, Regarding the 17-4, are your machines BBT? We have some 17-4 jobs that currently go on our 40 taper mill, and are the only thing that make me think about keeping the slowpoke around. If/when it gets swapped out with another Brother (probably S700 or S1000), how important would dual contact be? Everything can be done with small tools, 3/8" and under, I'm already using short, radius corner tools whenever possible.

    Side note to the OP- not meaning to hijack your thread, I'm hoping these Q&A's are relavant to you also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    Eaglemike and Trochoidial, thanks for the info on wifi, I'll give it shot.

    Mike, Regarding the 17-4, are your machines BBT? We have some 17-4 jobs that currently go on our 40 taper mill, and are the only thing that make me think about keeping the slowpoke around. If/when it gets swapped out with another Brother (probably S700 or S1000), how important would dual contact be? Everything can be done with small tools, 3/8" and under, I'm already using short, radius corner tools whenever possible.

    Side note to the OP- not meaning to hijack your thread, I'm hoping these Q&A's are relavant to you also.
    My 700 is dual contact. I don't think it's as important for 1/4 and under, using chip thinning/advanced roughing. I also run part of the job on either a 450, or a 500, which are not dual contact. The last op on the 40/500 uses 3/16 and 1/8, again hsm adaptive paths. I used to use a 40 taper and 3/8" tool for the main op now on the 700. I now use the 1/4" 6fl from Mari, special ordered with a .020cr. IIRC 12% stepover. I'll edit later with speed and feed correction, but 8500 and 83IPM come to mind. Recommendations were slower, but I found it ran better when I sped it up quite a bit, going by memory. I'm using coolant. Hope this helps. The tools last longer than the old way and cycle time is down close to 50 percent since making the changes optimizing for the 30 taper Brother. Smaller tools are cheaper, too.

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