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  1. #1
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    Default Looking to buy a new Horizontal Machining Center

    I have been tasked with replacing one of our older machining centers that is at the end of its life cycle. The machines I am looking at are an Okuma MA400HA, Toyoda FH400J, and a Makino A51nx. We have quite a few Okuma HMC's and several Makino HMC so I have some knowledge of them but I have never been exposed to Toyoda machines. I was also going to look at DMG Mori but I have messaged twice through the website asking for information and have received no response at all so I have taken them off of my list. I guess I am just looking for you guys opinions as well any experiences good or bad with any of the machines I have listed. Any information would be appreciated. I was excited about looking at Toyoda and DMG Mori because all we have ever had is Okuma and Makino because it was an easy swap to basically always replace them with an updated model but I know there are so many other options out there.

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    buy one that has service/repair close to you.
    Good Luck!!

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    If you are actually interested in a Mori, I would CALL, you know, on the phone, 20th century style.
    While Amazon has spent hundreds of billions a year on making its website instantly responsive, many smaller companies get so much spam that its much better to actually talk to them on the phone, old school style.
    I know I am lucky if I find gems among the spam more than 75% of the time.

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    Dear,
    I think, basic question is which parts you cut on this machine.
    Making test on this machine (time of cutting, accuracy, roughness and so). Regards. Libor

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    I agree with Greg White about the service support. To me this is huge. I was really impressed with the Toyoda design. The 400mm machine I was reviewing has an additional bearing in the spindle which I was told most manufactures don't have. This was to help with longevity and robustness. I also liked how the spindle taper was actually a removable piece. This way, if you had a crash and it compromised the taper, you can replace just that piece as opposed to an entire spindle. Seems to me like Toyoda really thinks about machine longevity. Obviously, you hope to never have that problem but it was nice that it's there.
    However, the toyoda uses a Fanuc control which will be a little different than what you are used to. I don't mind Fanuc but some people can't stand them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wishin4snow View Post
    However, the toyoda uses a Fanuc control which will be a little different than what you are used to. I don't mind Fanuc but some people can't stand them.
    Makino runs Fanuc on the back end anyway. So it isn't really that much different. Does Makino do a good job with thier custom front end? Yes, but at the end of the day its all going through a Fanuc control...

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    Quote Originally Posted by huskermcdoogle View Post
    Makino runs Fanuc on the back end anyway. So it isn't really that much different. Does Makino do a good job with thier custom front end? Yes, but at the end of the day its all going through a Fanuc control...
    I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

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    I agree I could call but the other three mentioned contacted after sending them a message through the contact portion of their page. Mori auto responded saying someone would be in touch but they haven't. Do have a place on your page to request information if you are not going to follow up on those requests. It wasn't a problem for Okuma,Makino,and Toyoda to respond. Thanks for the feedback on the Toyoda, I definitely like the spindle features you mentioned and that is one of the reasons I reached out to them for a quote. I am not worried about the Fanuc control as the Makinos we have now are Fanuc controls with Makino added touch. I am more concerned with reliability,repeatability, rigidity, responsiveness when there is an issue,and parts availability. Thanks for your comments. Also one question off the subject, how do I change where it says plastic under my name? I can't find where to change it.

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    As far as support and service near me, Toyoda/Phillips has a location in Greenville,SC , Makino has a place in Greenville,SC and Okuma has a home in Charlotte,NC so all are within 2 hours from me.

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    "Plastic" is just a name given to newbies is all.
    You can post your way out of it eventually.


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Why do you bay new machine doe to good service or good cutting. Regards. Libor

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I have been tasked with replacing one of our older machining centers that is at the end of its life cycle. The machines I am looking at are an Okuma MA400HA, Toyoda FH400J, and a Makino A51nx. We have quite a few Okuma HMC's and several Makino HMC so I have some knowledge of them but I have never been exposed to Toyoda machines. I was also going to look at DMG Mori but I have messaged twice through the website asking for information and have received no response at all so I have taken them off of my list. I guess I am just looking for you guys opinions as well any experiences good or bad with any of the machines I have listed. Any information would be appreciated. I was excited about looking at Toyoda and DMG Mori because all we have ever had is Okuma and Makino because it was an easy swap to basically always replace them with an updated model but I know there are so many other options out there.
    DMG has been great for me in Canada for support. But I was able to contact them by knowing who the area rep is. If you want I can put you in touch with him and he can refer you to your local guy.

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    Default Looking to buy a new Horizontal Machining Center

    Makino is generally regarded as making some of the finest HMC’s on the planet...
    Last edited by cnctoolcat; 01-17-2020 at 05:02 PM.

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    There was a thread a few years ago about problems with Toyoda's having issues with chip removal at very high metal removal rates. They may have addressed that problem by now but you should check into it.

    Charles

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    Thanks for the input! We have several Makino machines that have held up very well over time as well as Okuma's. Thanks for the info on the Toyodas also. I am supposed to get a call from the rep today to set up an appointment to go see a couple working in the field.

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    The issue with the Toyoda that he mentions is in HUGE volume removal in alum - nigh on 20 yrs ago.

    You can find the thread in the Toyoda forum on this site.
    It shouldn't be down too far, but the title is "This girls got hips!"


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    Think Snow Eh!
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    You didn't mention what kind of parts you're making, but for a 400mm HMC, it would take one seriously impressive machine, to impress me as much as a new Makino A51NX.

    I've watched Makino's webinars on the benefits of their machines, (which are excellent - if you haven't seen them already, watch them ASAP) so I had been wanting to see one in person for quite a while.

    The shop I worked for previously purchased one about this time 1 year ago.

    First impression - the machine is TINY! As in, they have really reduced the foot-print, which is a good thing.

    Second thing to notice - the linear guides/rails are HUGE. Not just big for a 400mm machine - big by any standard. My current employer has (11) Mazak HCN6000-2's, which is a 500mm, 50-taper HMC, and I've seen them many times with the sheetmetal off. Without seeing these machines side by side, I'd easily bet that the Makino A51's linear rails/guides are as big, or bigger than the 500mm Mazak machine's.

    Third thing - I have never seen a machine move like this A51... While the A51 is listed as 2,362"/min (60,000mm/min) rapids & 1G acceleration - fairly standard for 400-600mm HMC's - the way that Makino has the servo's tuned is remarkable. I have never seen a machine transition through rapid moves, and into feed moves like this machine. It accelerates/changes directions so fast during high-speed-machining cuts [in solid-aluminum mill parts] that it's a little worrysome really. Crazy acceleration in feed moves that you really can't "see" on paper - you have to watch it cut... In fact, a Brother Speedio may be able to out-accelerate an A51 rapid-point to rapid-point, but I want to see the machine that would out accelerate an A51 during cutting... That would be an impressive machine for sure...



    IF we were talking about 50-taper HMC's that were doing true heavy-duty cutting, then I think I'd give the nod to Okuma. Their MA line is seriously impressive for heavy cutting. In fact, I want to see the machine dollar-for-dollar that could out cut one of their MA-series machines, in terms of heavy-duty cutting.

    Being as we're talking 40-taper machines though, I think you'd be hard-pressed to out-do an A51. Perhaps maybe something from Enshu if we were talking about automotive die-cast parts. Enshu has 3,543"/min (90,000mm/min) rapid machines, so I'd look into them if they had support in my area. BUT, I wouldn't be on Rapid's alone to out-perform an A51, in-cut. I don't know much about Toyoda, and have always wondered what made them so special to be honest. I know their playground is in automotive machining, and I suspect that is because of their relationship to parent company Jtekt/Toyota's ties to the auto industry...

    Edit: I kind of sound like a cool-aid drinking, Makino fan-boy there, but that would be a lie. I'm actually a card-carrying Okuma lover, but am really just a sucker for a well built machine. Credit where it's due, Makino has hit it out of the park with the A51 line...

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  25. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    Third thing - I have never seen a machine move like this A51...
    I'm not recommending this, so please put away that stick but about a year ago I saw a totally unknown brand vmc with linear motors at a show in Nanjing.

    That fella would shit-n-git but the biggest surprise was, QUIET ! You don't realize how noisy ballscrews are until you hear something that doesn't have them.

    Kinda wondering why linear motors haven't made their way into the mainstream ...

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    All of these are high quality machines. Makino and Okuma are, IMO, top drawer all the way. The issue will be controller. Makino uses their own interface on a Fanuc 31 control. It's fast and works well. Okuma uses their own control, and it is very fast as well, so it depends on post processors and other things.
    I've never run a Toyoda, but they appear to be well made. For me, I'd go either Makino or Okuma because of service/parts/presence. If I had to pick right now - Makino, but Okuma would be a close second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I'm not recommending this, so please put away that stick but about a year ago I saw a totally unknown brand vmc with linear motors at a show in Nanjing.

    That fella would shit-n-git but the biggest surprise was, QUIET ! You don't realize how noisy ballscrews are until you hear something that doesn't have them.

    Kinda wondering why linear motors haven't made their way into the mainstream ...
    My understanding is cost is the issue.


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