Looking for CNC lathe - prefer new, no CAM
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    Default Looking for CNC lathe - prefer new, no CAM

    I'm looking into getting a CNC lathe this spring. I'm looking for some advice, first CNC lathe. Part of me wants to pick up a 25 or 32mm swiss used and get busy learning, but I think it might be wise for that to be my second lathe. Something with a little less setup and more versatile might be better. I make my own products and do job shop work. One part I make is an Al cylinder, bored out and a slot down the side longitudinally. I'm not exactly sure what all a lathe would need to do that in one go: I'm not sure if live tooling is enough or if you'd have to have a Y axis. Running secondary ops on the mill might be preferred if it keeps me from needing a CAM package. Same with subspindle, I love the idea of doing backside ops, but if it forces a new software package, maybe not.

    Budget is probably 50-100k but I need to talk to my banker. My Speedio is almost paid off, but 2020 was slow, so I'm not sure how much he'll want to lend me. I don't feel great about going over 100, staying closer to 50 would be nice.

    My current CAM doesn't do lathe. I would prefer something onboard so I don't have to invest in a new CAM package (fusion is not happening). I've read on here that Okuma and Mazak have good onboard programming.

    So, I'm going to be looking into the base models of Okuma, Mazak, Doosan, and Takisawa (Yamazen is good here). I don't want a Haas. I'm also not interested in a semi-manual machine like Prototrac. Adding a bar feeder down the road would be great. I imagine they can all do that. I don't know what prices are yet. I believe the entry level Takisawa is around 60k. I'm hoping the other entry level models are around there?

    Advice is appreciated.

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    If you're cutting slots on the diameters, you'll *really* want a Y axis machine, or you won't be able to do much except rip a slot and hope for the best. The Y allows you to run the cutter around the "track" and size it just the way you want it. Highly recommended.

    I'm a little biased as I used to work for Doosan. They're a great value machine. Manual Guide i onboard programming is pretty good. I used to do applications and training, so I know a little about it. The Lynx LSY and LY are great buys. Doosan has a bar feeder interface and M codes as standard, so hooking one up shouldn't be too hard. Service and support are excellent.

    With that said, IMO, Okuma is top drawer. It's what I have in my shop. The OSP control has great cycles and graphic programming. Yeah - it costs, but a great, top run machine. Service and support are great too. The Okuma OSP is never obsoleted.

    Haven't run a Mazak in years, but they sure do have a following.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    If you're cutting slots on the diameters, you'll *really* want a Y axis machine, or you won't be able to do much except rip a slot and hope for the best. The Y allows you to run the cutter around the "track" and size it just the way you want it. Highly recommended.
    So, can you get a Y axis lathe new under 100 and not need a CAM package?

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    So, can you get a Y axis lathe new under 100 and not need a CAM package?
    Used there are many options for Y axis lathes. Unless you’re doing really complicated Y/C axis mill work basic G code on the lathe will come quite fast if you’re competent in reading mill code. On the lathe the most common thing to keep in mind if programing by hand is your G50SXXX line and where the turrets gonna rotate.Nothing like spinning a 12" diameter part up to 4500RPM then index the turret into it!

    As Douglas said, Okuma. They make a beast of a machine and they last forever. There are several of the Okuma Captains on Ebay in the $60K range so that frees up some capital for tooling. Granted the Captain was the budget line but still a good machine.

    Not sure why you would limit yourself to at the machine programing but I guess to each his own. If I was really having to look at a lathe with Y or Y/B/C, as bad as I detest Autodesk I would go with Featurecam/Partmaker just to free up shop floor programming time. Finger banging code at the control IMO is an absolute waste of resources. Yeah, you could program at a pc with notepad since most everything on a lathe is canned cycles but its so much faster to import a model and click FBR and pretty much be done. And whats FC running now a days, maybe $3,500-$5,000 for lathe with Y and sub? Lose a couple of jobs because of programming time and that CAM package gets cheap real fast.

    But, If you’re wanting a Y axis under 100k then you have several options, Used....
    Okuma with OSP
    Doosan with Manual Guide i
    Mori with MAAPS 4
    Hurco with Winmax
    Swissmak with ???? <<<<<< New!!!!

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    I guess I'm not opposed to a CAM system. I had read on an older thread a guy's employees programmed at the machine 98% of the time because it was great/easy (Okuma). Seemed appealing. I have Inventor on my PC with perpetual license, so no ADSK anything can touch it. I guess 5k is not a ton of budget for the software, but I assume there's another 2k/yr forever in maintenance.

    I've inclined to go new simpler machine instead of used more complicated. I was looking at something like this but I'm now thinking starting with a really complicated machine might be better as my second lathe:


    Citizen Cincom L32 Swiss Lathe, 1999 - IEMCA 542 Boss Bar Feeder, Tooling Includ | eBay

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    Gotta say it.....kicking myself. If no CAM is really where you're at. Haas is a really simple interface. Easy and fast to input code manually and it has a pretty decent verify/graphics function. The Iron leaves a lot to be desired.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Gotta say it.....kicking myself. If no CAM is really where you're at. Haas is a really simple interface. Easy and fast to input code manually and it has a pretty decent verify/graphics function. The Iron leaves a lot to be desired.

    R
    AND you could get it new with a barfeed for <$100k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    I guess I'm not opposed to a CAM system. I had read on an older thread a guy's employees programmed at the machine 98% of the time because it was great/easy (Okuma). Seemed appealing. I have Inventor on my PC with perpetual license, so no ADSK anything can touch it. I guess 5k is not a ton of budget for the software, but I assume there's another 2k/yr forever in maintenance.

    I've inclined to go new simpler machine instead of used more complicated. I was looking at something like this but I'm now thinking starting with a really complicated machine might be better as my second lathe:


    Citizen Cincom L32 Swiss Lathe, 1999 - IEMCA 542 Boss Bar Feeder, Tooling Includ | eBay
    If you have a perpetual Inventor license, why not use that ?. I do everything in Inventor, but all mill work. I heard the turning side of things wasn't great though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wsurfer View Post
    If you have a perpetual Inventor license, why not use that ?. I do everything in Inventor, but all mill work. I heard the turning side of things wasn't great though.
    My version doesn't do turning.

    I can get another PC for the lathe a software, but if the onboard programming is really good, I'd be interested. Comfy stool and no maintenance sounds attractive. I've heard lathe programming is simpler than mill and I know a guy who runs swiss machines and does all coding by hand, so I was thinking if I don't do too complex parts maybe I could live without CAM for a while which would help get into a better machine.

    Thanks for the advice all and no Swiss mock for me I like it but I need to be able to cut more than wood.

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    Agree with g-coder, why would you program at the machine ? that means you have a $100,000 computer sitting there when you could be doing it in the office for $1500.

    Lathe code is so simple that I can't imagine needing CAM. Something like an old Bobcad to grab the geometry and away you go. Plus the cam for lathes sucks balls. You can do a much better job by hand (if you care about that kind of thing.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    So, can you get a Y axis lathe new under 100 and not need a CAM package?
    I'm not sure where Doosan's pricing is anymore. Call your distributor. Doesn't hurt to ask. I do know they run specials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Lathe code is so simple that I can't imagine needing CAM. Something like an old Bobcad to grab the geometry and away you go. Plus the cam for lathes sucks balls. You can do a much better job by hand (if you care about that kind of thing.)
    So, you're saying programming a lathe in notepad at a desk is easier than the onboard programming at the machine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    So, you're saying programming a lathe in notepad at a desk is easier than the onboard programming at the machine?
    Pretty much, yup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    So, you're saying programming a lathe in notepad at a desk is easier than the onboard programming at the machine?
    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Pretty much, yup.
    I didn't have much need for it, but the new Haas lathes will import dxf files for geometry. Can't believe sitting in notepad is going to be faster/more efficient than that. Also, once you get past bores/threads/and donuits, cam becomes much more attractive for lathe programming. We made some parts one time that had one straight diameter/boss, but the entire front face was rads/angles/fillets, nothing else straight or simple.

    similar to this
    lathe.jpg

    I programmed these in cam, (not exactly that^) but I imagine a dxf import or a similar tool is a hell of a lot easier than trigging those angles and fillet start/end points, especially when they are 2 place decimals on the print and they have been rounded up/down accordingly.

    I think on even older Hurco mills (never seen a Hurco lathe so?) it would do some of that math for you with enough other information, but not sure what controls offer that anymore...

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    Can't believe sitting in notepad is going to be faster/more efficient than that.
    I think what EG is leaning towards is if one doesn’t have a CAM system it is better to be away from the control with a tablet or PC jotting Canned cycles rather than trying to jockey parts while the programming in the background of the control.

    If i'm hand coding and get in a zone and have to stop to swap a part it's hard to get that focus going again. And say your finger jamming on the membrane and accidentally pop the reset button. I four finger type on Fanuc and why the hell they put Insert, Delete, and Reset all together with remain one of the biggest Fanuc blunders of all time. Sucks being in cycle and accidentally hitting reset only to chip an insert, or worse be rigid tapping!

    Like EG said, that CNC may as well be a 100K PC if the spindles not turning because your programming at the control. Plenty of $50 tablets at the pawnshop to use for hand programming.


    I have to wonder now that PartMaker has pretty much been phased out what the law will be on using it? That is the finest lathe CAM to ever hit the market, seems a shame for it to vanish now. With Cosmos looking hard at Swiss then Partmaker would be top notch for his application.

    Litlerob1,,,
    Didn't you run that monster Mori NT-6600 at Prime when we were there? Not really a Swiss but close to it. I'm curious what they went with for programming. I remember the owner said just use the MAAPS control software but something about a machine with a 40 HP sub spindle and finger CAM made me a bit uneasy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Litlerob1,,,
    Didn't you run that monster Mori NT-6600 at Prime when we were there? Not really a Swiss but close to it. I'm curious what they went with for programming. I remember the owner said just use the MAAPS control software but something about a machine with a 40 HP sub spindle and finger CAM made me a bit uneasy.
    We have the little brother of that machine (they share the same manual / identical programming) and Featurecam is really pretty great for programming it...

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    I've got a quote (from last year) for a Doosan LYNX 2100-LYB for $123K list price. It comes with a 2-year warranty, 4 live tool holders (2 axial, 2 radial), 2.6" bar capacity, std. barfeeder interface, 4500 RPM, and 20 hp for 20 min.

    List price on a Haas ST-15Y optioned out similarly comes to $108K.

    Just to give you an idea, the Doosan weighs 8800 lbs. vs. the Haas at 6000 lbs.

    I would be a bit leery of Hurco because I know no one running one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    So, you're saying programming a lathe in notepad at a desk is easier than the onboard programming at the machine?
    While it may be easier for some, it also allows more chances for human error and fat fingering.
    BUT it allows you to do other things while your lathe is making you money.
    Still though, the conversational controls nowadays make writing a program super fast and easy it's almost a shame to use notepad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    While it may be easier for some, it also allows more chances for human error and fat fingering.
    BUT it allows you to do other things while your lathe is making you money.
    Still though, the conversational controls nowadays make writing a program super fast and easy it's almost a shame to use notepad.
    I have used Haas, Mori and Mazak conversational. Mazatrol beats the shit out of them all. I dont think you can get a new Mazak with live tooling for less than 100 grand. A good used one though.........

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    Thanks. Yeah, live tooling and subspindle would be nice, but maybe that's not in the cards with a new machine.

    Great info on the programming, thanks all. It sounds like I can get a good ways without CAM. I do have backplot visualization so I should be able to kinda simulate my fingerbang code.

    I now understand the 100k PC comment. My spindle uptime is pretty bad already. But my shop is small and overhead is low so I can imagine some programming at the machine. I couldn't do it while it's running, I'm too green at this.

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