Looking at a haas machine for production

swamppifi · Mar 14, 2021

Hello to all

I am a CNC Programmer for a large company using Creo, Icam, and Vericut.

Now I have been assigned a task to source a multi tasking turning center within a set budget.

currently 5 axis machines are falling out of that price range, so I am looking at lathe with Y Axis and live tooling.

one machine I am in the process of looking at a Haas ST35LY for our factory. Now I new to dealings with Haas, I am mainly Mazak and Okuma machines, so I would some feedback from current owners on their machine. I am putting my neck out by even thinking of recommending a Haas machine..... :confused:

.

also any other machines recommendations would be welcome, other manufactures feel free to contact me

Thanks

rcoope · Mar 14, 2021

Oh man, the opinion havers are gonna get here soon. Before they do you might describe better the parts you want to make on this machine. That seems to be a big factor in machine choice, especially with lathes with y-axes. I have had parts that looked like lathe parts until you looked at them closely and they turned out to be mill parts.

Milland · Mar 14, 2021

I'm a Haas owner and have purchased them for other places I've worked.

In your situation, I would strongly consider the service and parts availability aspect over price. And for that reason, if you've gotten good S&P from Okuma, I would stick with that brand for your lathe needs.

I've only run a couple Haas lathes, but those did not impress me as much as the VMCs I've owned/bought. Just my opinion of course, but I would suggest you look elsewhere for a production machine where you're "sticking your neck out".

I would also include verbiage in the purchase contract that training and a "prove out" period be part of the deal, to ensure the machine can do what the salespeople claim.

snapatap · Mar 14, 2021

We have a Doosan puma 3100XLY at work that we are very happy with, very similar in size to what you are looking at.the support from the local agents, Hare and Forbes has been very good.

johneezreno · Mar 14, 2021

Also if your shop is accustomed to Okuma why not stick with the family. Adding a 3rd style control can add confusion and frustration.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

cameraman · Mar 14, 2021

swamppifi said:
Hello to all

I am a CNC Programmer for a large company using Creo, Icam, and Vericut.

Now I have been assigned a task to source a multi tasking turning center within a set budget.

currently 5 axis machines are falling out of that price range, so I am looking at lathe with Y Axis and live tooling.

one machine I am in the process of looking at a Haas ST35LY for our factory. Now I new to dealings with Haas, I am mainly Mazak and Okuma machines, so I would some feedback from current owners on their machine. I am putting my neck out by even thinking of recommending a Haas machine..... .

also any other machines recommendations would be welcome, other manufactures feel free to contact me

Thanks

swamppifi said:
one machine I am in the process of looking at a Haas ST35LY for our factory. Now I new to dealings with Haas, I am mainly Mazak and Okuma machines, so I would some feedback from current owners on their machine. I am putting my neck out by even thinking of recommending a Haas machine..... .

So ideally you'd like to hear from folks already running this machine. ^^^

A lot of "Peeps" here may not be aware of what the current incarnation of the HAAS ST35Ly is .

Here's a couple of things that surprised me a little bit.

The NEW ST-35Y weighs about 14,300 lbs,

'Starting price" $122K.

4" bar capacity. + 12" chuck / 40 HP spindle.

ST-35Y | 12" Chuck | 15" Chuck | Y-Axis Turning Center | High-Performance Turning | Haas CNC Machines

^^^ This shows difference between OLD model vs. NEW (scroll to bottom) of DETAILS (tab).

_________________

If $ is a consideration not sure if the new MAZAK EZ series of turning centers would fit what you want ?

Since the "Difficult times" DMG Mori and MAZAK have been seeking to take a bite out of HAAS' market. With more affordable machines that claim to uphold some level of quality of components and methods they normally employ, like - integrated DD type motor spindles or core cooled ball screws / thermal control etc.

Not sure that the new MAZAK EZ series / QT-EZ 12 would fit the bill for you in the "Maybe better than HAAS " category ?

QT-Ez 12 | Mazak Ez

Qt-EZ-12 ^^^ Has a long bed version. + fully accurate contouring C axis (not just positional).

MSY type turning centers of the size you are talking can easily be $200K ++ (when fully equipped).

Maybe other mill turn options for you ?

mhajicek · Mar 14, 2021

I have a 2015 Haas VMC that I'm very happy with. I cut Ti6Al4V and 17-4 H900 on it most of the time, and hold tenths reliably. That said, from what I've heard, as far as lathes go, well, Haas makes a decent VMC...

Take that with a grain of salt though, because those opinions I've heard are not based on the latest generation of machines; they could well be the cat's pajamas now.

gregormarwick · Mar 14, 2021

cameraman said:
The NEW ST-35Y weighs about 14,300 lbs,

That's still very light for a machine of that capacity class.

I have simple two axis lathes of the same capacity that weigh more than 1.5x that.

It's actually barely a tonne heavier than my little 10" chuck Y axis doosan, while being more than twice the capacity...

I'm firmly of the opinion that anyone used to Mazaks and Okumas probably just shouldn't be shopping for Haas at all...

rcoope said:
...you might describe better the parts you want to make on this machine. That seems to be a big factor in machine choice, especially with lathes with y-axes. I have had parts that looked like lathe parts until you looked at them closely and they turned out to be mill parts.

This is really important.

You started looking at 5 axis lathes but were budget constrained. Something made you think that the parts you need to put into production were best suited to that (assuming you mean a b axis millturn).

If that's the case, then downgrading to a Y axis live tool lathe is likely to be a really bad idea. BTDT. Wasn't until we managed to actually put a b axis machine on the shop floor 5-6 years later that I realised what a bad decision the Y axis machine was. But that was us, your case might be different. We mainly make complex parts in very small quantities, and Y axis live tool lathes really suck at that.

Schjell · Mar 14, 2021

swamppifi said:
Hello to all

I am a CNC Programmer for a large company using Creo, Icam, and Vericut.

Now I have been assigned a task to source a multi tasking turning center within a set budget.

currently 5 axis machines are falling out of that price range, so I am looking at lathe with Y Axis and live tooling.

one machine I am in the process of looking at a Haas ST35LY for our factory. Now I new to dealings with Haas, I am mainly Mazak and Okuma machines, so I would some feedback from current owners on their machine. I am putting my neck out by even thinking of recommending a Haas machine..... .

also any other machines recommendations would be welcome, other manufactures feel free to contact me

Thanks

I've got a year old ST30Y and love it. If we were big spenders I would have opted for a Mazak Integrex simply because the neighboring tools in the turret requires a lot of focus during setup/programming to avoid collisions. The new long bed version with the recess at chuck end is a major improvement, but that arrived this year I think.
We do a lot of small series and one off parts. I find that the machining only comprises about 20% of my time. The toughest steel I have cut so far is stainless stuff (duplex/Superduplex) and it does this very well even though spindle loading will excess 100% during heavy cut turning.
Also the NCS dialogue is great. Discover small things every day, for instance the C axis accuracy is stated to be 0.1 degree. On a big OD this would become noticeable I presume, but not an issue so far.

Orange Vise · Mar 15, 2021

We have two ST20Y lathes alongside a DMG Mori NLX2500SY. The most obvious limitations of the Haas lathes are lower overall mass, a belt-driven main spindle (versus a much smoother direct drive on the NLX), and a limited subspindle (doesn't have a true C-axis, doesn't have much throat diameter or depth).

Nevertheless, I love those machines. Most impressive is the milling capability. The live tooling drive system is made by Benz, and the turret has a BMT65 interface. It's surprisingly capable and will go toe-to-toe with higher end machines in many instances.

The NLX will do everything the ST20s can do, but not the other way around. Not surprising, as the ST20s were significantly less expensive. We were able to offload about 75% of our parts from our NLX onto the ST20s, and for us that was a huge win.

AARONT · Mar 15, 2021

We have one 2014 Hass ST10Y. This thing has been a pain in the ass. It's the only machine in the shop that we had rust issues with(within the first 6 months it was pretty bad). We had 2 Haas Mills delivered at the same time, same coolant, same water, cutting the same materials and no issues. We have had the techs in more than a half dozen times for different issues. After 5 years(maybe 1500hrs run time) we had to do almost a complete rebuild. It took 5+ weeks to get the techs in and another 1.5 weeks of them working on it daily. After several meetings we finally agreed to half off on parts and labor(the bill was at around $30k). The mills have been great, but this lathe will be the only Haas lathe in our shop ever.

Basically, we got a lemon.

cgrim3 · Mar 15, 2021

Maybe try doosan/daewoo puma series. More heavy duty. They come with a lot of things standard that are options on the haas. Once you option the haas to what the doosan has as standard,, the haas price is pretty close to the doosan.

CORONA VIRUS · Mar 16, 2021

I like Haas mills but hate Haas lathes. If you are going from Mazak/Okuma you will be greatly disappointed.
With that said do you prefer Icam, or Vericut?

cgrim3 · Mar 17, 2021

Did you decide on a machine?

cnc repair · Mar 18, 2021

I am a field service engineer for....... well I will try and stay nuetral. Haas machines are just not production machines. I’m sorry, plus you are talking y axis and live tooling. Is haas still using pneumatic turret clamping? I go to a lot of shops and see all kinds of machines. While Haas might be great for limited runs or prototyping they just don’t have the rigidity of a Mazak or Okuma. I promise you will get what you pay for. Mori seems to have gone down hill on their service. I would suggest Mazak QTN 250 MSY (milling,taxis,sub spindle) they are rigid machines that can take a bump without having to tear the turret off for a re alignment . I hate to say it but check out Doosan they are moving up in the cnc world and they have really been working on their lathe line. But......... go with a mazak, you just can’t go wrong..

cnc repair · Mar 18, 2021

The Haas lathe with milling and a sub spindle will go toe to toe with a mori or a mazak?

Gobo · Mar 18, 2021

cnc repair said:
The Haas lathe with milling and a sub spindle will go toe to toe with a mori or a mazak?

Never. Never. Never.

metalmadness · Mar 21, 2021

Lemme get this straight, your whole shop is running Okumas or similar class machines and you’re legit considering a Haas? I mean no hate on Haas they’re good for what they are but....if you’re budget isn’t allowing you to find a multi axis lathe that fits the bill, then maybe it’s your management’s budget that is the issue. I’ve seen this before. People want to buy the cheapest machine. Well the cheapest machine is usually the worst machine.

Buy a Mazak. Mazak machines are universally considered to be one of the top MTBs out there, especially for multiaxis lathes. A Haas is not a production machine, it won’t be as rigid and potentially won’t last as long especially after crashes.

I’d recommend consulting with the higher ups to really consider what the needs are, that should determine budget, not an arbitrary number. I went through the same thing, boss wanted 5 axis, I said 5 axis will be atleast X dollars. Well they changed their mind and I got what I wanted

Scruffy887 · Mar 22, 2021

cnc repair said:
I am a field service engineer for....... well I will try and stay nuetral. Haas machines are just not production machines. I’m sorry, plus you are talking y axis and live tooling. Is haas still using pneumatic turret clamping? I go to a lot of shops and see all kinds of machines. While Haas might be great for limited runs or prototyping they just don’t have the rigidity of a Mazak or Okuma. I promise you will get what you pay for. Mori seems to have gone down hill on their service. I would suggest Mazak QTN 250 MSY (milling,taxis,sub spindle) they are rigid machines that can take a bump without having to tear the turret off for a re alignment . I hate to say it but check out Doosan they are moving up in the cnc world and they have really been working on their lathe line. But......... go with a mazak, you just can’t go wrong..

Shipping to me the week of March 29.
I know from real experience that they can take a bump. The VDI twisted and sheared off the alignment pin in the process. It was a double sided holder too. Was is key word. I keep it on my back bench to remind myself to pay attention.
See post #4
Minor crash..

Orange Vise · Mar 22, 2021

cnc repair said:
The Haas lathe with milling and a sub spindle will go toe to toe with a mori or a mazak?

No, not exactly.

The Haas lathe is lighter and less powerful all around. There's no comparison in turning capability. An NLX will take at least double, maybe triple the DOC compared to a similarly sized ST.

But milling on a lathe is limited by the live tool interface, the rigidity of the workpiece, and the rigidity of the workholding, not the overall mass and rigidity of the machine. The newer Haas lathes with BMT65 turrets and Benz right angle drive systems are surprisingly capable, and in many real world applications, there's not much practical difference. Haas really closed the gap when they ditched their old turret designs.

This mostly applies to milling on a main spindle. If you do a lot of milling on the subspindle, then the sub becomes the limiter. Haas' "finishing subspindle" on the ST lathes is pretty half-baked.

I guess the moral of the story is make sure that whatever you buy, it can handle the specific jobs you're going to throw at it. Higher end lathes have fewer limiters, but of course that comes at a higher price. Haas machines have their place in the industry - just be aware of where those limiters are.

Looking at a haas machine for production

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