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  1. #1
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    Default Looking for horizontal mill suggestions.

    I'm sure this has been asked a million times before, but I'll ask again. After all it's a new year.

    I'm entertaining the idea of purchasing a horizontal in order to streamline our 3/4 axis work. Seems to me having a pallet system running 3 axis work on a tombstone would be better then running on a 3 axis mill. Plus I could have everything fixtured up to repeat nicely.

    We cut mostly aluminum, steel and and some stainless. Plus or minus .005 for most things. Nothing too complicated on the 3 axis side of the shop.

    Ideally ide have at least 200 tool pockets, more would be preferred.
    12000rpm minimum, obviously ide like more
    ABSOLUTELY NO FANUC UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES EVER. (Fanuc is the worst)
    Medium or even small envelope ok. Enough for a Lang vise or two.
    More than 2 pallets would excellent.
    Heidenhain control would be excellent

    What should I look at? Any recommendations? Also any reason not to buy a horizontal? What don't you like about them?

  2. #2
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    I used to work for Doosan, and they made a great HMC. They were generally Fanuc which is what you don't want. Okuma makes a great machine and the OSP is a rock solid control. DMG Mori makes a top quality HMC and I believe they offer Siemens or Heidy as an option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    I used to work for Doosan, and they made a great HMC. They were generally Fanuc which is what you don't want. Okuma makes a great machine and the OSP is a rock solid control. DMG Mori makes a top quality HMC and I believe they offer Siemens or Heidy as an option.
    I do like the new doosan... Except of course the fanuc. I'll look into the others thanks.

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    Once you get rid of Fanuc as an option, your readily available solutions are Kitamura (the HX300iG), Okuma (MH-4000), DMG Mori (if you want to make a mistake).

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Once you get rid of Fanuc as an option, your readily available solutions are Kitamura (the HX300iG), Okuma (MH-4000), DMG Mori (if you want to make a mistake).
    Don't forget Makino ! (At least they hide the Fanuc behind their own screens )

    Also have seen some Toyodas that looked pretty nice, not Fanuc.

    Heidenhain control, going to look long and hard for that.

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    What work envelope?
    Check out the Okuma MB-4000H CNC Horizontal Machining Center | MB-4000H | Affordable Excellence

    That holds up to 218 tools, they have some that go up to 400 tool capacity as well.

  7. #7
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    We have quite a few Okuma HMC's and they have done well for us. I do prefer the Okuma control for ease of use and operator friendliness but we also have several Makinos with Fanuc control. They run well and we have had limited issues with them but I am not a fan of the Fanuc control.

  8. #8
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    I am in the same boat ,, I keep looking at going to HMC and between the local dealer and Fanuc its made it really hard to think about a Doosan ,,, but there is some used ones on the market at good prices , I priced out new ones and think it might be better for myself to look at the used market ,, mostly do to the "HUGE" drop in price a horizontal takes. most VMC`s loose about 30 to 50% of there value in 10 years and HMC`s loose like 70 or 80% ,,, I think the trick is finding one that has not been ran into the ground ,,

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I think the trick is finding one that has not been ran into the ground ,,
    They do exist. I saw a 450 Toyoda a couple months ago that sold for $30,000. Looked very clean, had been running low-volume aluminum parts. Natcherly the guy went broke

    pssst, SnowCAT ! Don't say Fanuc, you'll scare him off. That's a Pro5 control !

  10. #10
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    Does Mitsubishi still make HMC's? Their older horizontals were really nice, or at least I think they are.

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    Not sure why people wouldn’t buy a machine with a fanuc. Have 5 horizontals with fanuc and are continuously rock solid. I have Kitamura arumatik here also. And it is not easier or harder than a fanuc control. And each control has its own issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unahorn View Post
    Not sure why people wouldn’t buy a machine with a fanuc. Have 5 horizontals with fanuc and are continuously rock solid. I have Kitamura arumatik here also. And it is not easier or harder than a fanuc control. And each control has its own issues.
    Because fanuc is objectively terrible, compared to literally any other control on the market they are garbage. If I'm going to buy a quarter of a million dollar machine the control should be at easier to use then a cell phone from 2002.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRIAN.T View Post
    Because fanuc is objectively terrible, compared to literally any other control on the market they are garbage. If I'm going to buy a quarter of a million dollar machine the control should be at easier to use then a cell phone from 2002.
    Okay, if you are willing to think used, look into the RAM 630. Nice nice machine, but not for sheeple.

    Nice Maxims and Magnums go for very cheap but I am not sure you would like the Cincinnati control any better than Fanuc.

    I'm limiting myself to stuff you can still get service on ... and assuming you are not in love with "Windows-based user-friendly" (if you need to write a Word doc) controls.

    What is your idea of a good control ?

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    One of our Fanuc machines has 95% uptime 24 hours a day for the last year. Yea, objectively terrible. In the end the controls handle a couple main functions. Work offsets, tool offsets, running the program, and macros. Our fanuc’s are no easier or harder to run than our Arumatik, citizen, and brother controls. Just seems close minded to me. They all have their plus’s and minus’s.

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    Well that's the beauty of scratching out your own check..you get to be closeminded
    You get to chose your own path. I had a deep hatred for fanuc but now that hate leans more towards Heidenhain.

    On that subject is the "new fanuc" that I see on the new robodrills "different"? I cant tell if their memory quote is fake or if this thing is really "new and improved"
    Gary

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    Out of curiosity, what do you like in a control and why do you hate fanuc and what do you think the alternatives are ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unahorn View Post
    Not sure why people wouldn’t buy a machine with a fanuc.

    Because they are far from being user-friendly. Okuma is leaps and bounds better than Fanuc. Granted I haven't played with any of the high-end Fanuc controls,but I doubt they are even in the same ballpark as Okuma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Out of curiosity, what do you like in a control and why do you hate fanuc and what do you think the alternatives are ?
    This is just one example, but we got a new P900 Mikron with a Fanuc 31i control last year. Also have an older machine with a Heidenhain 530.

    If you're picking up a part with the probe using rotation, on the old Heidenhain the rotation angle gets set right into the work offset (preset table in Heidenhain speak) so if you want to do some manual probing or jog to specific position using mdi no big deal the control will compensate and bring you to the right position.

    No messing around with invoking/cancelling G68 just to measure a hole or something.

    Some of the factory probing cycles on our 31i don't like to work with G68 active either makes it a pain picking up some parts accurately.

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    We have an Okuma Mb4000 and have found it to be great for both production and the odd mix of job shop stuff. We have only had ours for about a year but it has seen a ton of work since installed.

    Not sure how price compares to the others but you get 15K spindle and as many tools as you're willing to pay for. If you want to add a pallet pool you'll have to dig into your pockets a bit...


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