Looking at new lathes - would like opinions. Considering Haas ST-15 or alternatives?

Right now I have a giant Okuma LC-40 with a 5C collet chuck on it. It's old, slow and huge, but it holds tenths all day long and I don't think I could take a heavy enough cut to strain it. But I never got file transfer working right, so I have to type in every program by hand. And the coolant tank is in the casting so it stinks and is a PITA to maintain. It has live tooling and dual turrets, neither of which I've ever used.

Haas is doing some pretty good deals on lathes, and Eastec is coming up next week... I'm thinking of possibly making a purchase.

Right now, all I make is 3 production parts on my lathe. One is made from 1" 6061-AL bar stock, another is made from 0.5" 6061-AL bar stock and the last is made from 1" cast acrylic. I only "need" to hold .001 which any lathe should be able to do. I never know what product I will be making in the future though, so I want something capable of doing more. Example: A new product I am working on will require 0.75 dia x 0.5" long slugs of (annealed) tool steel with a blind threaded hole in the center and a 1.75" OD x 1.25" ID x 0.060" thick ring of 7075-AL. But I can count on one hand the number of times I ever put the 12" hydraulic chuck on my LC-40. 95% of the time I run the 5C collet chuck, and 4.9% of the time I run a 16C collet chuck.



The Haas ST-15 has a base price of $44,095 and it's decently equipped (Wifi, lots of memory, etc). The options I would want to add would be:
-Finishing spindle ($16.2k)
-Tool setter ($4k)
-Parts catcher ($2.3k)
-Chip conveyor ($4k)

This brings the total price to $71.5k. That seems like a pretty damn good price for a brand new sub-spindle lathe with 2.5 bar capacity on the main and 4000rpm. I know "Haaspower" and all that, but I would mostly be cutting stuff 1" OD or less, rarely maybe 3" OD, and almost all aluminum and plastic. The Haas comes with ethernet, Wifi, lots of memory, a pull-out coolant tank, and much more than my existing machine. Plus it would be WAY smaller and WAY faster.

Right now I bar-pull on 1st op and someone stands at the machine to run 2nd op. The sub spindle will let me eliminate someone standing at the machine. I stayed away from Haas due to their reputation for quality/reliability, and I would prefer a Doosan Lynx... but I'd be buying used and all the late model sub-spindle Lynx's I find have live tooling and most with a Y-Axis, so it's more expensive to buy one 3-5 years old than the ST-15 brand new.

Anyone got any solid reasons why I shouldn't be considering the Haas? I'm also thinking I could do without the chip conveyor, tool setter and maybe the parts catcher up-front to save money off the retail price. Are those options able to be field installed? If so, is the cost different large to install later? It's not that I can't afford the machine - just was planning to sell some equipment first to pay for most of a new lathe... but if deals are available at Eastec, I might bite the bullet but don't want to get porked on the cost of field-installed options if I elect to save some $$ up front.

Yea I have been looking at that flyer myself. Get the chip conveyor and tool probe up front. It just makes your life so much nicer. The parts catcher can be worked around but how far of a drive from the HFO? The field install would be a new door but if they have to drive half a day to get to you that adds up.
I have had great luck with my ST10, and this model has even more improvements
Gary

You might talk with D.D.Machine. He has a reply in the thread here about picking up an ST-15 recently.

Cycle1000 said:

Yea I have been looking at that flyer myself. Get the chip conveyor and tool probe up front. It just makes your life so much nicer. The parts catcher can be worked around but how far of a drive from the HFO? The field install would be a new door but if they have to drive half a day to get to you that adds up.
I have had great luck with my ST10, and this model has even more improvements
Gary

Click to expand...

I think the HFO is opening a location closer to me, right now I think about 2 hours away. Thanks for the info. Maybe you know the answer to some follow-ups...

-I've used parts catchers that drop the part into a little slide-out box in the main door, and some with a conveyor that rolls the parts out the side of the machine. How does the ST-15 one work? Does it actually open the door and dump the part out the front (into a waiting tub I guess?) or does it put them into a compartment in the door?

-How accurate is the tool probe? I know a lot of guys with lathes that never use them. It's huge on my mill and touching off tools in the lathe is a bitch, so if it works well I'd definitely get it. But if I am taking test cuts and tweaking offsets anyway, maybe I can make that a "add later" option.

-They call the sub spindle a "finishing spindle". It has little detail on the Haas site. I am sure it must move in Z and be able to transfer parts from the main (or else it would be useless it seems). I am guessing it doesn't have C-axis indexing on it?

-They have an option for C-axis indexing (on the main spindle only maybe?) but it lists 0.5 degrees indexing. That seems useless for any sort of machining. I have a C-axis on my lathe now and all I use it for is to index the collet to where the set screw is straight up. Any reason I would want/need the C-axis indexer on an ST-15 if I don't have live tooling? I can't think what else it's for?

Haas has came a long way with their machines but if I were looking at a new machine, I would look at Mori Seiki as well. I'm sure they will be higher than the Haas machines apples to apples but I'm a big believer in you get what you pay for. We have (3) 4-axis Mori lathes and they have been the best lathes by far compared to the others we've had. I say that with regards to dependability and accuracy.

SRT Mike said:

-I've used parts catchers that drop the part into a little slide-out box in the main door, and some with a conveyor that rolls the parts out the side of the machine. How does the ST-15 one work? Does it actually open the door and dump the part out the front (into a waiting tub I guess?) or does it put them into a compartment in the door?

Click to expand...

ST-30 I used to run had a compartment in the door for storing parts. I'd think the ST-15 would be similar.

Might be worth it to get a quote from doosan. I just went through the leg work of figuring out if a new lathe or used lathe would be more effective. We ended up going used, but I got some really competitive quotes from doosan and mazak.

I quoted a live tool lathe with sub spindle from doosan and it was just over $100k. This included spindle chillers, chip conveyor, auto tool setter, parts catcher.

SRT Mike said:

I think the HFO is opening a location closer to me, right now I think about 2 hours away. Thanks for the info. Maybe you know the answer to some follow-ups...

-I've used parts catchers that drop the part into a little slide-out box in the main door, and some with a conveyor that rolls the parts out the side of the machine. How does the ST-15 one work? Does it actually open the door and dump the part out the front (into a waiting tub I guess?) or does it put them into a compartment in the door?

-How accurate is the tool probe? I know a lot of guys with lathes that never use them. It's huge on my mill and touching off tools in the lathe is a bitch, so if it works well I'd definitely get it. But if I am taking test cuts and tweaking offsets anyway, maybe I can make that a "add later" option.

-They call the sub spindle a "finishing spindle". It has little detail on the Haas site. I am sure it must move in Z and be able to transfer parts from the main (or else it would be useless it seems). I am guessing it doesn't have C-axis indexing on it?

-They have an option for C-axis indexing (on the main spindle only maybe?) but it lists 0.5 degrees indexing. That seems useless for any sort of machining. I have a C-axis on my lathe now and all I use it for is to index the collet to where the set screw is straight up. Any reason I would want/need the C-axis indexer on an ST-15 if I don't have live tooling? I can't think what else it's for?

Click to expand...

The tool probe is very accurate IMO. And now it has much better function. Used to be you manually moved it into position and dialed your tool in close then used it. Now, once you have a tool set, you can use it to 'break check' very similar to the vmc probing. DON'T add later, if you even think you will use it, get it. I think it is pretty damn expensive as a field install. I would also recommend against the high intensity lighting for that size machine. It will be right on your head and just be creating shadows on the work.

Another thing to consider, I don't know the actual size of the 10 or 15, but the 20 is pretty small. Not just chuck/swing/Z, but overall. It is just this side (good) of comfortable to me at 5'10". If you are much taller you will be stooping alot to get in and out of machine.

.5 deg indexing- no direct experience, but I am thinking without live tooling it is not needed? If you have live tools, .5 might be a little limiting, but still usefull IMO. Mill hexes, orient for drilling, etc. No C axis milling I guess, but depending on your parts....

SRT Mike said:

I think the HFO is opening a location closer to me, right now I think about 2 hours away. Thanks for the info. Maybe you know the answer to some follow-ups...

-I've used parts catchers that drop the part into a little slide-out box in the main door, and some with a conveyor that rolls the parts out the side of the machine. How does the ST-15 one work? Does it actually open the door and dump the part out the front (into a waiting tub I guess?) or does it put them into a compartment in the door?

-How accurate is the tool probe? I know a lot of guys with lathes that never use them. It's huge on my mill and touching off tools in the lathe is a bitch, so if it works well I'd definitely get it. But if I am taking test cuts and tweaking offsets anyway, maybe I can make that a "add later" option.

-They call the sub spindle a "finishing spindle". It has little detail on the Haas site. I am sure it must move in Z and be able to transfer parts from the main (or else it would be useless it seems). I am guessing it doesn't have C-axis indexing on it?

-They have an option for C-axis indexing (on the main spindle only maybe?) but it lists 0.5 degrees indexing. That seems useless for any sort of machining. I have a C-axis on my lathe now and all I use it for is to index the collet to where the set screw is straight up. Any reason I would want/need the C-axis indexer on an ST-15 if I don't have live tooling? I can't think what else it's for?

Click to expand...

Sorry just seen this.
Tool probe is very accurate, you will use the heck out of it. Not sure on the 15 but my ST10 the parts catcher is in the door.
Cant comment on the rest.
Gary

The haas offer is probably a great choice for You.

It is cheap, relatively, and will make your parts all day, to better accuracies than you need, as good as any other more expensive machine.

On the type of parts You mentioned, the limiting factor will mostly be the material, so no other similar lathe will cut the parts appreciably faster.

Haas has the best resale value in the world, and high demand for used machines.

In case you need a bigger machine later, or whatever, or the jobs change, or even god forbid dry up, you can unload the Haas very quickly, with very little economical loss.
This is harder with other machines, and the loss in value is typically 30-40% / 5 years, vs 20-25% or so for the haas.
Adjust 5% or so depending on stuff, on value.

You will make about the same money on parts made with the 70k$ Haas as 100k$ other(s) brands mentioned before.
All the parts will be fine, made at about the same speed, parts look the same (tooling and machining code defines this, not the machine).

A 70k HAAS costs approx 3k$/month, and a 110k$ other brand costs about 4k$/month.
If you pay cash, the equation is still the same, You were Your own bank, that´s all.

MO:
If You have the money cash in hand, finance 50% with haas.
You have positive equity and can never loose, since the residual value is always higher, quite a lot, than your liability.

This applies to the other machines as well, of course, if they also offer cheap non-recourse financing not burdening your balance sheet.
For Haas the asset is the machine, not your personal assets or net worth or shop.

Full disclosure.
I was the Haas Spain sales manager, sold 65 machines, 2012 or so.
My opinions are my own.
No economic ties or interests.

The c axis used to be 0.01 degrees accurate.
It uses a separate ground gear, around the spindle.

A very very high accuracy gear, agma 9 (iirc), made with a 9M$ gear grinder, I met the guy who sold the grinder in EMO2012, germany.
No idea if current system is the same.

We made ballscrew ballnuts using the c axis, broaching, as a demo. st-y 30.
Customer was very impressed using their own go/no go gages, and results were much better than needed.

I used to work for Doosan and I can tell you that a Sub-spindle Lynx with Y axis is exceedingly productive. Yeah, it's more money, but there's so much more you can do.
Full C axis contouring on both main and sub.
Full Y axis.
Fanuc controls, drives and such.
Parts support second to none.

Nothing wrong with the other guys, but you get a lot with Doosan.

That Okuma is a real animal. We had two LC-30s, an LC-40, LC-20 and an LB-15 (which I still have). Great machines.

We have the ST10, same as the ST15 but 6000rpm and 1.75" through capacity. I can say it holds tenths all day long, very fast, 4 years old now without any problems. We see no reason to purchase anything but Haas now. As others have mentioned, they have came a long way.

Mike


Since Eastec is now over, please take this only as a suggestion....

Forget the ST-10 or 15 series, and, take a look at the ST-20 machines instead!
Add the options you want, and then simply add one more thing: BMT 65 turret!
Yes, it is a $5000 nut to swallow, but it is going to help you out in the long run!

If you are still interested in getting a new lathe, I'd be more than happy to show you the reasoning for the above statement.
You're in the Boston area, I am in the western side of CT, 2 or maybe 2 1/2 hours of drive away.
I have one of the original Haas SL-10 lathes, a Mori Duraturn 2550 and a Mori NL-2000SY and perhaps can shed some different light on what you may want or need which you have not considered.

PM me!