Looking to replace 3/4 niagara reduced shank with an inserted end mill

primeholy · Sep 28, 2016

My boss wants to research into replacing our 3/4 Niagara end mills. They have a reduced shank for a 3 inch reach with 1 inch doc. These bad boys are 240 bucks a pop, and he wants to reduce cost. We cut a bit of 1018,4140 prehard, and fx (which has about a 40 rc). We use volumill a lot on the 1018 and 4140 pre(taking full depth cuts). The fx we mainly do side cutting, and sometimes flat lands.

Do any of you guys have suggestions on inserted, or any other type of tool.

Limy Sami · Sep 28, 2016

Warning ;- An inserted EM will cut very ''hard''

primeholy · Sep 28, 2016

Well, that may not be good on our Makino F5.

Mike1974 · Sep 28, 2016

I don't see using a volumill or high speed path with a "regular" inserted endmill working very well.

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I've used some smaller (3/8-1/2") multi-master like these, but I don't see them being all that much cheaper than what you are buying.

Mtndew · Sep 28, 2016

primeholy said:
My boss wants to research into replacing our 3/4 Niagara end mills. They have a reduced shank for a 3 inch reach with 1 inch doc. These bad boys are 240 bucks a pop, and he wants to reduce cost. We cut a bit of 1018,4140 prehard, and fx (which has about a 40 rc). We use volumill a lot on the 1018 and 4140 pre(taking full depth cuts). The fx we mainly do side cutting, and sometimes flat lands.

Do any of you guys have suggestions on inserted, or any other type of tool.

$240 each? I see Niagara is still very proud of their end mills.
See if your cutter resharpening guy makes end mills, ours does and they coat them also.
Probably 1/2 that price. Give or take.

Jashley73 · Sep 28, 2016

Seco/Niagara rep here... If you can send me a picture of the label on the utters container, I can do some homework for you. I'm not really surprised at the price though. A 3/4" diameter carbide endmill with 3" reach is a pretty big carbide blank, and everyone knows how dis-proportionately expensive carbide gets, as you continue to increase the diameter. I'm thinking the reduced-neck might also make this a special as well.

If you don't mind altering your dimensions & cutting parameters some, we have some nice replaceable-tip tools that might work well for you guys. For instance, in our Minimaster-Plus range, we have a 5/8" diameter, X 3/4" LOC, 4, 6, & 8-flute version. Those would do nice for your high-speed toolpaths. It will be a little less expensive, but not by a whole lot.

We also have a 3/4" X 1" LOC indexable "helical" style endmill, using our 6mm Turbomill inserts. 3 flutes, 15 inserts. (EDP# 25839) These inserts/screws are tiny though, and I still don't know if you'd get as smooth of cutting action as a carbide endmill.

I'd be happy to look into your current cutter, or provide more info for you if you'd like. If you'd rather get in touch with yourSeco/Niagara rep for your area of TN, let me know and I can pass on to you - we have some great folks covering Tennessee.

Pitchy · Sep 28, 2016

Mike1974 said:
I don't see using a volumill or high speed path with a "regular" inserted endmill working very well.

ISCAR Cutting Tools - Metal Working Tools - Search Results

I've used some smaller (3/8-1/2") multi-master like these, but I don't see them being all that much cheaper than what you are buying.

Yeah, the Iscar multi-masters are great but are pretty pricey. We have been trying out some carbide tooling from Guhring and are happy so far, they work good and are alot cheaper.

primeholy · Sep 28, 2016

Jashley73 said:
Seco/Niagara rep here... If you can send me a picture of the label on the utters container, I can do some homework for you. I'm not really surprised at the price though. A 3/4" diameter carbide endmill with 3" reach is a pretty big carbide blank, and everyone knows how dis-proportionately expensive carbide gets, as you continue to increase the diameter. I'm thinking the reduced-neck might also make this a special as well.

If you don't mind altering your dimensions & cutting parameters some, we have some nice replaceable-tip tools that might work well for you guys. For instance, in our Minimaster-Plus range, we have a 5/8" diameter, X 3/4" LOC, 4, 6, & 8-flute version. Those would do nice for your high-speed toolpaths. It will be a little less expensive, but not by a whole lot.

We also have a 3/4" X 1" LOC indexable "helical" style endmill, using our 6mm Turbomill inserts. 3 flutes, 15 inserts. (EDP# 25839) These inserts/screws are tiny though, and I still don't know if you'd get as smooth of cutting action as a carbide endmill.

I'd be happy to look into your current cutter, or provide more info for you if you'd like. If you'd rather get in touch with yourSeco/Niagara rep for your area of TN, let me know and I can pass on to you - we have some great folks covering Tennessee.

I tried sending you a pic through pm. I don't know if I did it properly, as this forum is different than others I visit.

Hazzert · Sep 28, 2016

Mike1974 said:
I don't see using a volumill or high speed path with a "regular" inserted endmill working very well.

It doesn't. What the HSM tool paths do nicely with indexable tooling is a gradual entry into the cut so instead of jagged 90* moves inside a pocket you get the peeling action instead. Our Sandvik R390s will hum along with a 60-70% stepover no problem.

Jashley73 · Sep 28, 2016

primeholy said:
I tried sending you a pic through pm. I don't know if I did it properly, as this forum is different than others I visit.

I got it, thanks.

That endmill is in-fact a standard, on the shelf item. It would not be my choice however for cutting 4140-Prehard, and Fx2. The STR440 series is for stainless & hi-temp materials, and has a sharper radial-rake & relief angles I believe, for a "sharper" cutting action on these materials. They work well for soft/gummy/sticky materials as well, but tool-life will suffer when cutting hardened steels, versus some of our other geometries.

If you guys stayed with a solid-carbide endmill, we have several other choices hat migh be a better fit. The most-direct replacement would be our new Stabilizer 2.0 endmills, but in the more proper STR430.2 series. These are actually a little less expensive too... (EDP# N09468 For steels, tool steels, and pre-hardened steels.)

But I don't thinks it's quite that simple...

If you guys are looking to do high-speed tool paths, I think you need to step back and take a "big picture" view of what you're hoping to accomplish, and see if there's a truly better route for you. Weather it's a drop-in replacement, and indexable mill, or a 6/9-flute endmill just for high-speed machining...

The tool is the cheap part. It's the cycle time costs that really make the difference. Now would be a good time to look at it, if you haven't already. Let me know if I can help.

Garwood · Sep 28, 2016

Can you use a smaller diameter? A large VMC I just bought spent it's last 20 years milling 4140PH. It started out using a 3" diameter 4" LOC indexable cutter they nicknamed the "sledgehammer". The last 7 years it was using 5/8" X 3" LOC endmills with high speed toolpaths to get better results faster and much cheaper. This was holding a thou on 3" material at 55 IPM with a 5/8" diameter EM.

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