1980 FANUC Tape Drill - Model E purchase

Hi,

I have been searching for a CNC for a few years now and happen to stumble on a 1980 FANUC Tape Drill - Model E. The machine will predominantly be used to make parts for myself and some friends. In the off chance that I do get a few clients, I would like to be able to at least cover the cost of the machine. I'm not looking to start a business...

I did get a machine operator to check the tolerance of the machine, also spent a significant amount of time researching the tape drill. I'm still unsure of what I'm getting myself into but the cost has reduced the risk significantly compared to a Tormach (Which I cannot get in South Africa).

Measured tolerances by CNC programmer:
X 0.005mm
Z 0.016mm
Y 0.012mm

He did run a few tests to determine that it is still in working order and advised me that the Y bearings will need to be replaced which will cost $350 (R5 000). The cost can be reduced if I do the work myself. The machine is fitted with a FANUC System 6M-A serial number 1000021.

I have been in touch with Fanuc and they provided me with the Manual specification numbers but I cannot find them anywhere online. Hoping someone can assist with manuals.

FTDE 6MA B-52124 Operators Manual

FTDE 6MA B-52125 Maintenance Manual

So far I've looked at Retrofitting the machine using mach4, Linux CNC, Centroid or cal motion, which ranges from hobbyist to industrial controls. Another option is drip-feeding the control using a Titan DNC.

I have limited experience with 3d printers and CAD software such as Solidworks and Fusion 360. My Cad experience is limited to a few small parts but having my own CNC will hopefully improve the affordability of machining. I am very excited to get started with my first CNC and look forward to getting feedback from the community. As a professional, I work in the financial industry as a consultant, building software solutions for fintech companies.

Should I pass on this machine or will it be a good hobbyist machine?
What are the pitfalls that I will need to look out for with this machine?
I did receive instructions from Fanuc to backup the parameters which I will do before disconnecting the machine and preparing it for moving.

Any and all advice will be appreciated. PS my budget is currently $5500 which significantly limits what I can get in South Africa...

Attached are a few pictures of said machine.

Buy it right, and run it. The 6 is a good control,no need to replace it.
I dont have any A manuals , just B.

Take photographs of all the parameter pages, including PC-parameters if it has them.

The Fanuc 6 is 10,000 times more control than any hobby garbage. You'll be amazed what that control can do and how well it's still supported 41 years later. The only thing that control won't do is rigid tap, but it will thread mill and tap holes by the thousands reliably with tension-compression holders.

It should have an RS-232 comm port. If not then there should be a way to add one.

Memory is often small. I don't know what the 6MA max was, but the 6MB will hold quite a bit with the max memory card. I still run one and it has a 256k memory board. That will hold a very big program or many small ones.

If I was to choose a CNC to have in the middle of nowhere Africa it would be a Fanuc 6. Built like a tank. Replace all the electrolytic capacitors in that thing and it will still be running in 100 years.

I ran a model F, as well as B, C, and D. The F had a 3 control. I liked it and it was good for the simple production parts we were doing. The biggest problem I see is it uses proprietary tool holders that you probably can't get so you will be stuck with whatever comes with the machine, and the way it changes tools will keep you from removing the turret and doing it manually so you can us BT-30 holders. I think the taper is the same. I think Chiron used a similar holder but it only had one key slot in the holder. It's not a big deal since the keys in the spindle are spring loaded so the one without a slot would just stay pressed into the spindle nose. I also doubt the control will know what tool is in the spindle. You can put a T# before the M6 but the control will only read the M6, great fun with the new guy doing a setup. If you have T3 in the spindle and want to load T5 then you need to call two M6s to get there. Another downside, common with drill/tap machines is the closest the spindle nose will get to the table is about 240mm.

With all of the limitations with this machine I would think it is NOT a candidate for a control upgrade. That control is solid and a good match, if not overkill, for this iron.

Another thought. Does the 6 control use fixture offsets? The 3 didn't but you could substitute H offsets in different planes to fake it.

DavidScott said:

Another thought. Does the 6 control use fixture offsets? The 3 didn't but you could substitute H offsets in different planes to fake it.

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Yes, Fanuc 6 has standard G54-G59 fixture offsets, Height and diameter offsets, canned cycles, surprisingly advanced diagnostics, boards and drives use off the shelf parts that are easy to get. The old Fanuc maintenance manuals for these machines are really good when you have to finger something out.

If you can do it at 141 IPM feedrate or less (rapids much higher) and don't mind a 4800 RS232 connection the 6 is pretty OK.

I would agree on the iron though. My first real CNC had a Fanuc 6 on it, but weighed 18K lbs. What it lacked in agility it made up for with brute force and rigidity. The first time I programmed a VF3 I stalled the spindle and broke tooling using numbers much more conservative than I was running on my old tank.

Work offsets were an option. I am not sure if they were available on the A series 6.

G92 baby

Hardplates said:

G92 baby

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You betcha ! G92 heap good, screw them namby-pamby work offsets !

Thank you for the feedback and knowledge sharing.

A few points I got out of the discussion so far:

Fanuc 6MB is more than capable and no retrofit would be required.
The spindle can go closer than 240mm to the table. We used a vertical indicator in the spindle to measure the tolerances against a small steel block tacked to the table.
The proprietary tool holders went completely unnoticed when I went to look at the machine (Lack of knowledge). I did however spend some time researching and making my own which is a valid solution to the problem in case I do need new ones. ref Taper Tooling For The Mill - YouTube

My only concern is manuals, which is currently the only thing holding me back. I cannot find any and Fanuc is not responding to my emails...
Do I require manuals to operate the machine or is there enough information on the internet?
Will I be completely buggered without manuals should a problem arise?

wbuck said:

Will I be completely buggered without manuals should a problem arise?

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I would consider it scrap without wiring/ladder diagrams. Very difficult to troubleshoot without literature to see how it's supposed to work.

That machine has a 6M-A, not a 6M-B control. The A version was not as capable, don't know to what extent. I've never had one. The 6M-B was far more prolific.

Hardplates said:

G92 baby

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And when you want to shift the coordinates to the next part:
G0G19G43X?H40
G18G43Y?H41
G17

I agree with Garwood, that machine is worth what it would get AT the scrapyard, subtract the cost of getting it there. There are a lot of problems with it, including no chip pan! At least the one I ran had a chip pan so I could use coolant.

wbuck said:

.......My only concern is manuals, which is currently the only thing holding me back. I cannot find any and Fanuc is not responding to my emails...
Do I require manuals to operate the machine or is there enough information on the internet?
Will I be completely buggered without manuals should a problem arise?

Click to expand...

For any older machine, the documentation is vital to getting and keeping it running. Scrap value unless documentation is available.

In the era of the machine you are looking at, the Fanuc Drill Mates and Tape Mates were badged and sold as Pratt & Whitney Drill Mates and Tape Mates in the US and possibly Canada market. That may help you find/buy manuals applicable to your machine.

Thank you for the feedback.

I received feedback from Fanuc. They will be sending me a quote for the two manuals shortly, which is the operators and maintenance manual. The maintenance manual contains the structure, construction, system block diagram, PCB and unit specification. I, however, do not see anything related to the ladder diagrams. Will these form part of the construction page, or is there a way to back up the Ladder from the EEPROM instead? Will Fanuc be able to provide the ladder diagrams?

@DavidScott could you please elaborate on the other problems with the machine? Would like to know about any other issues which I need to address before purchasing the machine.

Value has been brought up a few times in the last few posts, I have yet to discuss a price with the seller. What is the current market value of such a machine?
Similar machines I have looked at puts the value around $4000.

wbuck said:

Similar machines I have looked at puts the value around $4000.

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Without books and free loading, needing thrust bearings, etc I'd say the value is around $0

With manuals in good running order I'd put the value around $1000 USD

How much does it cost to ship a used 4 ton or so machine in from the nearest industrialized country?

Garwood said:

Without books and free loading, needing thrust bearings, etc I'd say the value is around $0

With manuals in good running order I'd put the value around $1000 USD

How much does it cost to ship a used 4 ton or so machine in from the nearest industrialized country?

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While that may be true for you and even me, I doubt that is the case in South Africa.

There very well may be all kinds of stupid import fees, tariffs and other organized crime payoffs like here....opps I mean government taxes, that bring the value of an old used machine higher than you or I expect

wbuck said:

or is there a way to back up the Ladder from the EEPROM instead? Will Fanuc be able to provide the ladder diagrams?

Click to expand...

Thats a negative Ghostrider. I mean there is but you need a time machine. Its EPROM on that machine. Just make sure the stickers stay on to keep UV rays out of the windows.

The Paper ladder copy is separate from the Fanuc control maintenance manual, usually. I dont know how this was handled with a Fanuc machine back then.

GENERALDISARRAY said:

Thats a negative Ghostrider. I mean there is but you need a time machine. Its EPROM on that machine. Just make sure the stickers stay on to keep UV rays out of the windows.

The Paper ladder copy is separate from the Fanuc control maintenance manual, usually. I dont know how this was handled with a Fanuc machine back then.

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I had planned in the future to buy an Eprom reader/writer and pull all my eproms one by one and save backups......are you saying they are somehow protected so you can not do this?

The is just an idea I cam up with on my own so if it will not work I won't be terribly shocked

wbuck said:

Thank you for the feedback.

I received feedback from Fanuc. They will be sending me a quote for the two manuals shortly, which is the operators and maintenance manual. The maintenance manual contains the structure, construction, system block diagram, PCB and unit specification. I, however, do not see anything related to the ladder diagrams. Will these form part of the construction page, or is there a way to back up the Ladder from the EEPROM instead? Will Fanuc be able to provide the ladder diagrams?

@DavidScott could you please elaborate on the other problems with the machine? Would like to know about any other issues which I need to address before purchasing the machine.

Value has been brought up a few times in the last few posts, I have yet to discuss a price with the seller. What is the current market value of such a machine?
Similar machines I have looked at puts the value around $4000.

Click to expand...

Hello wbuck,
Its called a Tape Drill for a reason; it wasn't designed for milling. One of my clients back in the 80's had the same machine with a later control than the one you're contemplating. It's use was for drilling automotive air conditioning mounting brackets and for that it did a good job. They tried it out on a small, simple milling application and it was pathetic; they kept the Tape Drill for the purpose it was designed and bought a machining centre.

Ladder Logic can be represented in wire and switches. Many FS6A controls used a bank of relays as the PLC and the paper copy of the Ladder related to that. I never needed to open the control cabinet on the one Tape Drill (Tape Center - Model D) I was associated with; accordingly, I'm unsure of its arrangement.

Unless you intend to just drill holes, I believe you will be surely disappointed in this machine at any price.

Regards,

Bill

Hardplates said:

I had planned in the future to buy an Eprom reader/writer and pull all my eproms one by one and save backups......are you saying they are somehow protected so you can not do this?

The is just an idea I cam up with on my own so if it will not work I won't be terribly shocked

Click to expand...

I have had the same idea, so I read a little about it. It dont look easy.

We are lucky in that 6s dont seem to have any issues related to the eproms. That I have heard of.

Those machines will mill fine. I used to profile the ends on 1/8" wall 1"x3" rectagular 6063 extrusion with a 3/8" end mill. It would cut 45s on the each corner with a 3/8" mill where it was basically slotting without issue. The cutting forces were enough to break the DataFlute endmills at around 1500-2000 parts after they changed carbide so it was a serious load, before we were getting well north of 15,000 parts per endmill. The spindle taper on it was trashed from spinning holders. Like I said the drive dogs are spring loaded so if you overload them they will lift allowing the holder to spin. Only the A model was a true drill/tap, but it had linear motors and ways like a surface grinder. You could just grab the table and put it on the bench for easier access when setting it up, it was not attached to the machine.

Things to look out for would be:
1) Check the ways. They are greased and too often idiots don't use the right grease or any.
2) Telescoping ball screw covers.
3) Spindle taper and drive dogs. Make sure the the dogs still work and the taper isn't too bad.
4) That giant spring that holds the turret up. They don't last forever, are real impressive when they break and soar 30' hitting the roof of the shop before dropping down to the floor, and are a bit expensive so you might find one that was "repaired".
5) Not a big deal but do check it, the 22mm ish ball on top of the drawbar. It takes a bit of a beating, especially if not kept greased. I replaced it with a hardened gage ball and it worked for years.
6) The steel plate that the turret rides on. If it isn't greased it will gaul like crazy. It is not hard to reverse engineer and make a new one if needed. I used 4140 prehard and it worked perfectly. This plate can get bent too, it's not the best engineered part.
7) Make sure you can get pull studs. I don't know what they are but the shop I worked in that had 9 of these tape mates used pull studs that some old Ukrainian tool maker made. I don't know if they just couldn't buy them or if he was just cheaper.

Don't let that fresh paint job fool you, it's an old machine that has plenty of wear. If at all possible take an indicator with you on inspection to see how much slop is in the table when you push and pull it around, same for the head. Also test to see how square the head is to the table. It is real easy to twist the heads on linear way machines when you crash them, but not hard to fix yourself.