Looking for a small automated 3 axis

BRIAN.T · Aug 28, 2020

We are replacing one of our old VMCs, it's a 2216, with a reasonably compact footprint. What we really want is an automated 3 axis to replace it. We have thousands of little parts (1x1") that just get holes, or a tap, stuff that is +/- .030.

I don't want an operator to have to do anything anymore.

What do you guys use? What exists in the way of a purpose built automated 3 axis? We could do a mill/drill type with a robot, but I like the idea of something seamlessly integrated into a mill.

Thanks

BROTHERFRANK · Aug 28, 2020

We do a good # of these type set ups on the Brother machining centers. The S500X1 is 20 x 16, the S700 is about 28 x 16.

Brother with Spindle Gripper - YouTube

We can do a three jaw gripper for round work or two jaw for square or rectangular.

guest · Aug 28, 2020

Are they parts that can be done on a Y axis lathe? You can get pretty compact bar loaders and get a lot of spindle time without much intervention.

johneezreno · Aug 28, 2020

I've seen some pretty amazing work come out of turning center's with live tooling and bar feeders. Turning rounds into squares and vice versa. So many options. Your question could use a few more details.
Good luck on your journey.

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BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

BROTHERFRANK said:
We do a good # of these type set ups on the Brother machining centers. The S500X1 is 20 x 16, the S700 is about 28 x 16.

Brother with Spindle Gripper - YouTube

We can do a three jaw gripper for round work or two jaw for square or rectangular.

This is what I started looking at, just briefly, I'll look more in depth tomorrow. Whats the control on a brother? Do you find them easy to use? I need my night crew people to be able to do simple problem solving with reasonable ease. Thanks

BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

guest said:
Are they parts that can be done on a Y axis lathe? You can get pretty compact bar loaders and get a lot of spindle time without much intervention.

We actually already do a fair amount of that, I've got a small mill turn that we take advantage of. But we have a lot of small plate type parts that just can't be done on a lathe. Something like 1" x 2" .125 plate, with holes.

BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

johneezreno said:
I've seen some pretty amazing work come out of turning center's with live tooling and bar feeders. Turning rounds into squares and vice versa. So many options. Your question could use a few more details.
Good luck on your journey.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Which details would you like? In a nutshell I'll need it to be reasonably versatile, hence the lack of details. Ideally 50 or so different parts, all things that could be done in one op on a Kurt vise. Sorry if my responses are incoherent, I'm getting tired. I'll check back in the morning.

Thanks

BROTHERFRANK · Aug 29, 2020

BRIAN.T said:
This is what I started looking at, just briefly, I'll look more in depth tomorrow. Whats the control on a brother? Do you find them easy to use? I need my night crew people to be able to do simple problem solving with reasonable ease. Thanks

The Brother Speedio line is very popular and there are many users in CA as well as on Practical Machinist that can vouch for the quality, efficiency and user friendliness. The control is Brother's own, has been since 1985, which is one of the top reasons they perform so well. They use essentially the same common g-codes and canned cycles as most shops are familiar with. Supported by Yamazen Inc. in CA and all of the USA. I am sure they will be happy to work with you and your applications. I can help you get in touch with your local representative. I am part of the team and cover the San Diego County and Inland Empire areas.

as9100d · Aug 29, 2020

I've got a Haas MDC 500 I'll sell cheap. It's about 1/10 as fast as a brother but it does have a pallet changer.

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BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

as9100d said:
I've got a Haas MDC 500 I'll sell cheap. It's about 1/10 as fast as a brother but it does have a pallet changer.

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I'm sure you would. Ha no offense, but I'll never buy a Haas.

gkoenig · Aug 29, 2020

BRIAN.T said:
We could do a mill/drill type with a robot, but I like the idea of something seamlessly integrated into a mill.

Machines with robots and auto-doors get all the attention, but the devil is in the part/workholding details when it comes to success in this sorta thing. You can bolt a Universal Robot to anything for very little money and effort - but picking up parts, getting them in the workholding (cleanly!), out, flipped, back in... that is the nitty gritty of automation that takes up all the effort.

So tell us a little more about the parts. 1x1" aren't the interesting dimensions - thickness is. This is a straightforward deal if the parts are .5" thick (plenty of meat for the workholding and robot to work with). If the parts are .125" thick? Now we are in exotic gripper, PITA process reliability land. Also, one op or 2? 4th axis or 3? Can the part family all use the same workholding (or at least, different jaws on a Schunk KSP vise)?

It is a running joke with me how workholding and automation companies always show 2x2x2 blocks as demos - parts a monkey with a banana could automate. Real-world parts are often low-aspect ratio, with no straight surfaces because the ID team is obsessed with form, and tricky features that force us to do the whole thing on a multi-axis.

BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

gkoenig said:
Machines with robots and auto-doors get all the attention, but the devil is in the part/workholding details when it comes to success in this sorta thing. You can bolt a Universal Robot to anything for very little money and effort - but picking up parts, getting them in the workholding (cleanly!), out, flipped, back in... that is the nitty gritty of automation that takes up all the effort.

So tell us a little more about the parts. 1x1" aren't the interesting dimensions - thickness is. This is a straightforward deal if the parts are .5" thick (plenty of meat for the workholding and robot to work with). If the parts are .125" thick? Now we are in exotic gripper, PITA process reliability land. Also, one op or 2? 4th axis or 3? Can the part family all use the same workholding (or at least, different jaws on a Schunk KSP vise)?

It is a running joke with me how workholding and automation companies always show 2x2x2 blocks as demos - parts a monkey with a banana could automate. Real-world parts are often low-aspect ratio, with no straight surfaces because the ID team is obsessed with form, and tricky features that force us to do the whole thing on a multi-axis.

These are fair points. Everyone is definitely talking about universal robots.

Everything I would automate would be one op. No 4th axis work, and a lot of them don't even get any milling. Saw cut stock with some holes.

Off the top of my head I can think of a few good candidates.

1"x1.5"x.5 thick, two holes and a counterbore - 10k year

1x.250 x .125 two tapped holes - 20k per year

1"x1.5"x.22 thick, two holes counterbore - 5k year

2x2"x.250, holes, taps, milled pocket, 1k year

2x6x.125, holes counterbore. - 2k year

Position +/- .030 on.most of these. The last type of part mentioned (.125 thick) would probably be the tricky one. Would it be reasonably easy to load plate into a soft jaw and trim both sides to establish position? What do you find is the most complicated part of loading thinner parts?

Thanks

BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

BROTHERFRANK said:
The Brother Speedio line is very popular and there are many users in CA as well as on Practical Machinist that can vouch for the quality, efficiency and user friendliness. The control is Brother's own, has been since 1985, which is one of the top reasons they perform so well. They use essentially the same common g-codes and canned cycles as most shops are familiar with. Supported by Yamazen Inc. in CA and all of the USA. I am sure they will be happy to work with you and your applications. I can help you get in touch with your local representative. I am part of the team and cover the San Diego County and Inland Empire areas.

This does seem to be the top contender at the moment. Plus one of the owners has always wanted a brother. I do too. I'll reach out to my local sales rep on Monday. (Los Angeles) or could you tell me who I should contact? Thanks

as9100d · Aug 29, 2020

Idk... I wouldn't drop speedio kind of money making those things. Buy a used horizontal and let it rip.

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BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

as9100d said:
Idk... I wouldn't drop speedio kind of money making those things. Buy a used horizontal and let it rip.

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I haven't looked at price yet... Oops. I want a horizontal, but not for these. Ide still need to pay someone to load mitee bit fixtures all day.

DanielG · Aug 29, 2020

Would it make sense to cut a lot of these out of sheet with a vacuum chuck? Pop a sheet on, do the features, mill the perimeter down to onion skin, break it apart and deburr (vibratory?). Especially on the small parts where you have the large quantities, you'll get hundreds of parts done at a time, depending on how big a machine you get.

There are a few systems that let you mill/drill through the part without losing vacuum. Datron uses a permeable paper, but I don't think they sell their system standalone and I don't know if anyone else does the paper system. Ibag has a plastic mat with a bunch of tiny suction cups on it.

as9100d · Aug 29, 2020

BRIAN.T said:
I haven't looked at price yet... Oops. I want a horizontal, but not for these. Ide still need to pay someone to load mitee bit fixtures all day.

Speedio is going to run you close to $100,000 with no automation. Used HMC will be in the $50-70k range and your parts are small so you could use an octogon tombstone and load it up with miteebite stuff. Let it run for hours on end.

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BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

DanielG said:
Would it make sense to cut a lot of these out of sheet with a vacuum chuck? Pop a sheet on, do the features, mill the perimeter down to onion skin, break it apart and deburr (vibratory?). Especially on the small parts where you have the large quantities, you'll get hundreds of parts done at a time, depending on how big a machine you get.

There are a few systems that let you mill/drill through the part without losing vacuum. Datron uses a permeable paper, but I don't think they sell their system standalone and I don't know if anyone else does the paper system. Ibag has a plastic mat with a bunch of tiny suction cups on it.

You may be right, it might end up being the best way to do it. However, it's still a sizeable chunk of labor having someone break them apart for deburring, I do have several vibes available.

If we are going to spend the money ide love to remove as much labor as possible, even if it takes significantly more money, I think it's worth it over a couple of years.

as9100d · Aug 29, 2020

We do similar size parts by the 80,000+ per year and use a mix of dm2, robodrills, lathe with live tool and sub spindle and HMC.i think the live tool lathe with sub and HMC smoke the vmc options. They run 24/7 and run 3rd shift lights out completely.

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BRIAN.T · Aug 29, 2020

as9100d said:
Speedio is going to run you close to $100,000 with no automation. Used HMC will be in the $50-70k range and your parts are small so you could use an octogon tombstone and load it up with miteebite stuff. Let it run for hours on end.

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We have considered this as well, and it's a strong contender. However some of these parts get two tapped holes in them. Maybe 15 seconds per part, the fixtures that I'm already using take almost the same amount of time to load as they do to run. So even if I can pack 1000 parts into a single cycle, it will take a guy almost as many hours to load the thousand parts into the fixture. Ide much prefer (as would my operators) we make things more slowly, without an operator. You know what I'm saying.

Looking for a small automated 3 axis

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