Looking for tips for reducing setup time on live tooling lathes with dual spindles

Let me preface this by saying I've kinda always been a "mill guy" but I have experience with CNC lathes and programming them. Our head programmer for lathes recently made a dramatic and swift exit and I've been asked to fill his shoes. I'm looking for ways to reduce setup time for all lathes but mainly the ones with live tooling and a sub. We have a Mori NL2500 with y-axis and sub, a new Haas DS30Y, and a new y-axis live tool lathe on the way with a 15" chuck and a tailstock instead of a sub-spindle. Our "standard" programming methods usually involve roughing with a CNMG, Drilling and rough boring with an insert drill and boring bar, and finishing with a DNMG tool. We are a job-shop so our work ranges from small bar-feed work of a couple hundred parts to large castings and burnouts up to 16" diameter and quantities in the range of 1-10 pieces.

On to the questions...
1. what are some ideas for a "standard" turret layout? Obviously you cant keep all the tools you'll ever need in the turret at all time (i'm sure every guy with a lathe wishes they had more stations especially with live tools) but i'd like to establish some kind of standard so that I can have some kind of starting point for programming. For example always having a 3/4" insert drill in one station and a CNMG (roughing) DNMG (finishing) in standard stations to basically establish a standard work flow for the majority of the parts we make. I'd like to add that we typically alternate ID tools (b-bars and drills) with OD turning tools for clearance with the chuck.

2. Should I be looking into Capto or other kinds of quick change tooling? If we do go this route it certainly won't be for every turret station (at least not at first) so how would you best utilize quick change tooling? Would it just be for drills and boring bars since our OD tools rarely change?

3. What are some ways to save space in the turret? we have two dual holders for the DS30Y for the CNMG and DNMGs for boththe main and sub, and a Quad holder for the Mori (the kind where you have to offset the y-axis for each tool). I'm thinking of getting a dual Boring bar holder and putting ER-32 holders in them to save space for static drills and taps. but most of the dual holders either have the holes too close together or too small for 2 ER-32 nuts to sit beside each other. It seems like this is the area we struggle with the most as right now we lose 3 stations for a drill, countersink (i use a nine spotter usually), and a tap. so if there's a way I can squeeze these into fewer stations that would be great!

I'm sure I'll think of more questions as I go along. Right now i'm just trying to get a feel for the methods everyone uses and bouncing some of my ideas of Y'all

Thanks,
Randy

KinsleyMachine said:

3. What are some ways to save space in the turret? we have two dual holders for the DS30Y for the CNMG and DNMGs for boththe main and sub, and a Quad holder for the Mori (the kind where you have to offset the y-axis for each tool). I'm thinking of getting a dual Boring bar holder and putting ER-32 holders in them to save space for static drills and taps. but most of the dual holders either have the holes too close together or too small for 2 ER-32 nuts to sit beside each other. It seems like this is the area we struggle with the most as right now we lose 3 stations for a drill, countersink (i use a nine spotter usually), and a tap. so if there's a way I can squeeze these into fewer stations that would be great!

Click to expand...

Made myself a couple of triple Ø1" holders on a slow day. They aren't as easy or quick to change out as singles if you want to change drill/tap sizes, but they do save space.



The bores are on a 1.25" spacing. Overall height is 4.3" from turret. Comes pretty close to the enclosure on our ST10Y.

Also works well with boring bars.

If you need ER32 capacity, you might be able to do a triple or quad by staggering them.

Also did some double 3/4" sq shank holders. They work okay, but only for small stuff. I was kind of limited on the offset in Y I could use since the drops I was using were only so big. If I made them again I'd definitely go with more Y-offset to use these with larger dia parts.



One thing to consider is more tools per station = less coolant per tool. Sometimes if using coolant-thru drills we will use a regular single station to get more pressure.

If your shop is willing to set aside a budget for full-on Capto (not just one or two), then that's the way I'd go.

Complex subspindle lathe setups are not just about making sure the correct tools are installed, but also making sure certain tools are removed to prevent a crash. Capto makes this very easy. Double/triple/quad holders do not.

I've been looking at MT tooling and Lyndex and they both offer holders with multiple bores but none are just quite the way I want them (bores too small or too close together). I might have to go about making my own as you did. We also have a UMC 750 so it shouldn't be hard, just have to find some time between parts to get it in there. I should clarify that I don't necessarily "need" ER-32 capacity, it would just be nice since we already have a ton of collets. But if I can get away with an ER-20 or an ER-25 that would be plenty good enough in my book. The turret on the DS30Y is a BMT65 with half-stations. I've come to the realization that the half stations are almost useless since it has a Y-axis. I'd much rather have to offset the Y-axis than deal with having to stock 3/4" shank tools just for the half-index holder.

Thanks for your input!

Radar987 said:

If your shop is willing to set aside a budget for full-on Capto (not just one or two), then that's the way I'd go.

Complex subspindle lathe setups are not just about making sure the correct tools are installed, but also making sure certain tools are removed to prevent a crash. Capto makes this very easy. Double/triple/quad holders do not.

Click to expand...

That's just it though, I don't think i'll be able to convince the boss man to fully invest in Capto. As for the Dual/triple/quad holders i'd probably just want one of them just for drill/c-sink/tap processes. i'm definitely not looking to have my turret look like this

I shouldn't even be writing here because I don't have a lot of experience with daily running of my cnc lathe. But back when I did, I found it pretty helpful to get Kennametal Kmod, which is similar to Capto (in the sense of being a quick change system that you 'buy into'), for the boring bar stations on my turret. This permits easy removal of any bars that might get in the way, although I still have to watch for the projection of the stub base if working very close to the chuck jaws. But with a set of bars in a quick change holder, this made it feasible to program the bar offsets with G10 commands directly in the programs. Since tool setting is the major pain for my lathe, that was a big deal. That, and the fact that tool offset number must correspond with my tool number, so there is no way to store offsets in the control from program to program, if the bars are changed.

Anyway, that was fairly beneficial. I never have to change external turning tool stations very often, so I can't see a quick change system being of much added value there.

maybe start collecting data on times to start and finish parts and what is causing the most delays or time ??
.
just saying if you got data proving your opinions its easier to get stuff purchased. if you want to buy $50,000 of tooling to save $2000. a year often the boss might have preferences. that is if boss doesnt have a budget to buy a lot of tooling he is going to need data and facts to prove to his boss he needs to buy stuff.
.
many a time i have been told boss doesnt care if jobs take longer. boss wasnt going to buy a lot of tooling. especially one big purchase.
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sometimes easier to purchase tooling a few at a time, rather than make one big purchase. hard to describe.

Unfortunately there is also an element that needs to seriously be taken to heart IMO. That is that it's just slower to set those types of Lathes. You CANNOT compare it the setting a Mill or 2 Axis Lathe because it is both of those, plus some. So you have a Milling perspective, but you can't compare it to that. Indexing Turrets, all Tools approaching at once, balance, long Tools, Holders mounting surfaces, Centerline, Concentriciy, Runout, etc, etc. There are a ton of factors. Find the fsstest guy to do the set-up, and use that as a frame of reference.

R

Experience is going to be the way to cut set up time. Document what you are doing, set up sheets, pictures, notes in the program will all pay off. Even if it's not the same repeat job, simillar setups and jobs will save time if well documented. The answer is also going to depend on how often things repeat.

We have two of that same machine due to hit our shop floor in about 3 weeks. The have gantry loaders and bar feeders. Unlike you, we have the luxury of knowing what we will be running on these machinies, a total of about 30 different parts. We went Capto throughout the entire turret. Lots and lots of money, but we will be doing lots and lots of setups. One thing I would suggest is getting GOOD software for checking your code for collision avoidance. Solving as many problems before the code hits the machine will be a great help. Helps keep the pucker factor down too. There are some other quick change options than Capto. Cheaper also. These machines also have Schunk quick jaw change chucks. Also, if my memory serves me correctly, the tool eye for the sub spindle lives outside of the machine and is mounted only when needed, then demounted . A tool presetter would help you avoid that inconvenience.
Consider thread milling instead of tapping, where you can. 1 thread mill can take the place of several taps, all things considered.
If you are driven more by set up time than cycle time, circle mill when you can, rather than have several different drill sizes.

If you roll your own (or buy I guess) holders, I would highly recommend that you make sure that the C/L dist between pockets is at least as big as your max bar size, otherwise you will be using a lot of single holders.

We made many double holders, and some I even run out both sides. Like the one near the bottom of the firth pic, and near the top of the second.
That one runs a C-drill and a 3/4 multi-flute chamfer tool both for and aft - all on the same holder.

T101
T113
T125
T137

Also - some of those are some stubby ER25 holders that I made with 1"SS's.
Just buy the caps and the rest is hidden in a bar of 4140P/H amazingly enough!








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Got Low Pressure?
Ox

I only run a two-axis lathe with 12 tool stations so it may not be much help to you but here it is anyway.
Tools 1-4 are turning tools which never come out. Tools 6 and 8 are 2 1/2" boring bars for roughing and finishing bores. These never come out either.
T1 - CNMG432 (side edge) for roughing the face
T2 - CNMG432 for OD roughing
T3 - DNMG432 for face and OD finishing
T4 - CNMG432 right hand tool for back facing of casting flanges
T6 - CNMG432 for roughing bores
T8 - DNMG432 for finishing bores

Only drills, grooving tools and other size boring bars are the ones that I swap often depending on the job.

If I were Fancuku, I'd have 3 more stations.

R

On our 12 station NLX's, we will have 31 tools mounted. That is a mix of turning, boring, drilling, and both horizontal and vertical rotary tooling. We will not receive all of our Capto tooling in time, so we are forced to work with Quick-Flex tooling in a few of the stations until all of the Capto arrives. By loading solid models of the tooling into our software and running simulations before the machines arrive, we will be able to start production fairly quickly after the machines arrive.

Ox said:

If you roll your own (or buy I guess) holders, I would highly recommend that you make sure that the C/L dist between pockets is at least as big as your max bar size, otherwise you will be using a lot of single holders.

We made many double holders, and some I even run out both sides. Like the one near the bottom of the firth pic, and near the top of the second.
That one runs a C-drill and a 3/4 multi-flute chamfer tool both for and aft - all on the same holder.

T101
T113
T125
T137

Also - some of those are some stubby ER25 holders that I made with 1"SS's.
Just buy the caps and the rest is hidden in a bar of 4140P/H amazingly enough!

--------------------

Got Low Pressure?
Ox

Click to expand...

Nice OX! I'm not sure if I'm glad or jealous i don't have a second turret . Being able to use a center on the second turret is nice though, really wish i could at least have that functionality sometimes. May I ask what that is at the bottom of the lower turret? looks to be some kind of clamp. A bar puller maybe? Anyway thanks for your response! I am strongly considering just making my own holders as you have done.

Fancuku said:

I only run a two-axis lathe with 12 tool stations so it may not be much help to you but here it is anyway.
Tools 1-4 are turning tools which never come out. Tools 6 and 8 are 2 1/2" boring bars for roughing and finishing bores. These never come out either.
T1 - CNMG432 (side edge) for roughing the face
T2 - CNMG432 for OD roughing
T3 - DNMG432 for face and OD finishing
T4 - CNMG432 right hand tool for back facing of casting flanges
T6 - CNMG432 for roughing bores
T8 - DNMG432 for finishing bores

Only drills, grooving tools and other size boring bars are the ones that I swap often depending on the job.

Click to expand...

Right now in the DS30Y I have a 1-1/2" boring bar holder that is reserved for insert drills. This one is the Haas brand and it doesn't extend past the very front of the turret like the lyndex ones we have. The lyndex ones come about 1" past the front face of the turret so I use those for the bars, more clearance and rigidity for boring. I need every inch I can get out of boring bars, we're always doing deep bores and crazy undercuts so "small bar-long overhang" is no stranger to me. Still waiting for the 2" holders to come in.

Thanks for your reply!

Gobo said:

We have two of that same machine due to hit our shop floor in about 3 weeks. The have gantry loaders and bar feeders. Unlike you, we have the luxury of knowing what we will be running on these machinies, a total of about 30 different parts. We went Capto throughout the entire turret. Lots and lots of money, but we will be doing lots and lots of setups. One thing I would suggest is getting GOOD software for checking your code for collision avoidance. Solving as many problems before the code hits the machine will be a great help. Helps keep the pucker factor down too. There are some other quick change options than Capto. Cheaper also. These machines also have Schunk quick jaw change chucks. Also, if my memory serves me correctly, the tool eye for the sub spindle lives outside of the machine and is mounted only when needed, then demounted . A tool presetter would help you avoid that inconvenience.
Consider thread milling instead of tapping, where you can. 1 thread mill can take the place of several taps, all things considered.
If you are driven more by set up time than cycle time, circle mill when you can, rather than have several different drill sizes.

Click to expand...

Very true! we don't really have a good forecast of jobs so it's very hard to settle on a default tool line-up. Maybe I'm looking too hard at the whole "standard tools" thing and i just have to realize that you can't always have the luxury of keeping the majority of tools in the machine. Using threadmills and circle milling is a brite thought though! I will definitely try to apply this to future jobs.

Thanks for your reply!

litlerob1 said:

Unfortunately there is also an element that needs to seriously be taken to heart IMO. That is that it's just slower to set those types of Lathes. You CANNOT compare it the setting a Mill or 2 Axis Lathe because it is both of those, plus some. So you have a Milling perspective, but you can't compare it to that. Indexing Turrets, all Tools approaching at once, balance, long Tools, Holders mounting surfaces, Centerline, Concentriciy, Runout, etc, etc. There are a ton of factors. Find the fsstest guy to do the set-up, and use that as a frame of reference.

R

Click to expand...

I'm coming to the realization that you can't really have a standard tool line-up for the kind of jobs we do. Its unfortunate, but with the variety of jobs and the short quantities we often have it's sometimes difficult to justify investing the time to setup the sub-spindle and live tooling when we could just as easily throw it in a mill and be done with it. It's definitely rewarding though when you get everything dialed and you can sit back and watch finished parts pop out the parts catcher with no secondary ops (and hopefully no deburring!!!)

Thanks for your reply!

KinsleyMachine said:

I'm coming to the realization that you can't really have a standard tool line-up for the kind of jobs we do. Its unfortunate, but with the variety of jobs and the short quantities we often have it's sometimes difficult to justify investing the time to setup the sub-spindle and live tooling when we could just as easily throw it in a mill and be done with it. It's definitely rewarding though when you get everything dialed and you can sit back and watch finished parts pop out the parts catcher with no secondary ops (and hopefully no deburring!!!)

Thanks for your reply!

Click to expand...

Emotionally rewarding is not the same as Monetarily rewarding though huh?

IMO. There are a couple things to keep in mind to make money with these machines. 1st thing is the quote and the sale. 2nd is the quality of processing, that also needs to be sold.

R

KinsleyMachine said:

Nice OX! I'm not sure if I'm glad or jealous i don't have a second turret . Being able to use a center on the second turret is nice though, really wish i could at least have that functionality sometimes. May I ask what that is at the bottom of the lower turret? looks to be some kind of clamp. A bar puller maybe? Anyway thanks for your response! I am strongly considering just making my own holders as you have done.

Click to expand...

That is a gripper, to remove finished parts from the sub and set them down on a conveyor below it.
I don't use it all that often.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox