Looking at a Trak 2OP...

What do you gentlemen think of a ProtoTrak 2OP machine as a starter VMC?

My products are small, typically less than 2" square, and primarily aluminum. The used machine I'm looking at has the 6K spindle rather than the 10K, but my batch sizes are at best in the hundreds, so few seconds or a minute or two extra per part isn't a huge issue. The limited number of tools should not be a problem either.

My main concern is space. I'm operating out of a glorified 2-car garage in which I already have about 12 tons of machines. The 2OP is very compact- probably even moreso than the Tormach 770 I had my eye on for a few years. (This machine being about $10K less than a new 770 and a better overall machine to boot.)

I understand, from the Trak videos, that the controller is somewhat limited, but most of the time I'd be feeding it G-code generated on something like Fusion 360.

Long story short, I am not going to be doing cutting-edge work, or in high-performance materials, nor to significant volumes. I'm still quite the neophyte to CNC in general, so it's not like I'm going to have to re-learn a different operating system.

From the videos and sales blurbs, it looks like it'll do the job for me, but is there anything I should know? Anything it's not capable of?

Doc.

I looked at one a while ago. New I think you get more machine for your money with a Haas Mini Mill or Mini Mill 2. Used may be a different story.

I went with the CM-1 for my small parts.

That may well be true, but again, size, and to a lesser extent, shipping weight, are near the top of the list right now.

I'm not going to be trying to set any production records- I don't have the market regardless of what machine I had. What I do have, is a very tight shop and limited floor space.

The only thing that concerns me at the moment is if there's some aspect to the 2OP that makes it somehow less capable than a typical VMC- that is, can it make my parts (they're generally fairly simple, minimal contouring) and are there any quirks I should know about.

One of the questions I had was whether or not it could run a 4th axis. Even disregarding space constraints, apparently no, it can't. But it CAN run an indexer, and apparently Southwest has one for it. I don't necessarily need a true 4th axis, but an indexer would be very handy.

Doc.

Probably not a terrible investment.

3HP and 8 tools sounds kinda miserable to me.

Personally, I would tend to believe if you can fit 3ft x 4 feet you can probably fit 6ft x 8ft which is the size that most small, actually useful, VMC's are.

Just a couple weeks ago there was a small Howa VMC on Ebay on the west coast for $1500. 10k rpm, 20 tools, Fanuc 16i, 3 second pallet changer and only 7k lbs. Very nice clean machine.

IMO, that little trak thing is better than nothing, but it will likely frustrate the hell out of you compared to a real machine. You're going to pay a premium for it's tinyness that you'll never get back in actual usefulness.

Can you scrap that turret lathe and fit a real machine in there?

The turret lathe is damn near the only thing making me any money right now. I have an Omniturn GT-75 on the way, and hopefully that will change before too long, but it'll take me a good while to get truly up to speed with it.

I'm not looking for the biggest/bestest/fastest. I have some hard space limitations, and the bigger and heavier the machine is, the more and more it's going to cost just to get it shipped up here. I have a line on a 2OP that looks like it's in good shape, and it's a size I can squeeze into the shop.(After I shift some other crap around. )

Doc.

DocsMachine said:

One of the questions I had was whether or not it could run a 4th axis. Even disregarding space constraints, apparently no, it can't. But it CAN run an indexer, and apparently Southwest has one for it. I don't necessarily need a true 4th axis, but an indexer would be very handy.

Doc.

Click to expand...

older Prototraks are plug and play with Haas programmable indexers, I'd sure be surprised if a newer one like that wasn't also.I rigged up an Erickson air indexer to my AGE3, so any other indexer can be done also.

A former employee was more recently plant manager at a firm that had a Trak VMC in the toolroom, he thought it was a very nice machine to program and run.

Thanks Mud, good info. I haven't yet spoken to Southwest themselves, still trying to herd the proverbial ducks into a row. I just wanted to hear from some actual users, to get an idea if this thing had some stumbling block that would make it less than fully usable to me.

Everything I've read seems to indicate the ProtoTrak controllers are at least decent and reliable- no one seems to have any real complaints against them. I understand that this 2OP uses a modified version, but how modified I don't know, or if it's just 'modified' to work with a much smaller screen.

Might just put in a bid on 'er. Stand by for more stupid questions.

Doc.

I have considered a 2op for our facility but in the end it just...sounds like it would suck for production. Just like the awesome cool new Haas TM-0!! That comes in under 25K for the base level machine and....no tool changer. That sounds like a recipe for hating a machine. I am not one to usually recommend a Haas but if space is a consideration, a Super Mini sounds legit. Very good machine, maybe a little overkill if you truly only need second opping. But it is so fast you might be able to add a product line once it is done with teh second ops.

I have 3 prototrak machines right now and I would 100% never buy another one unless it was for a toolroom application. I hate programming it with either the conversational or using Mastercam becasue it really does some funky shit with the code. Post processor, impossible. SWI doesn't really want you running their machines using gcode so its damn nigh impossible to get a good post! TO be fair I have not tried their latest and greatest control with touch screen and what not and that may make it a lot easier to program but, my mind is fairly made up. I still have to HAND EDIT every single program that I feed it. I've tried editing the posts to no avail, I just don't know what kind of logic SWI has for their gcode side.

If you want you could splurge for a Brother Speedio...maybe a used one? A 6K spindle sounds like a big handicap as well

EDIT: meant to say Haas DT or DM

Kitamura MyCenter-Zero 3-Axis CNC Vertical Drilling Machining Center bidadoo | eBay

3 of these little buggers have sold in Seattle area in the past 2 months for dirt cheap. Can you fit one of those?

I consider those sparkchangers to be too small for my uses and I make a lot of small parts. 16x20 is my minimum. Smaller than that and vises don't fit, indexers don't fit, everything's a compromise.

Considering the cost of getting something to Alaska I'd sure spend my money on something decent.

Thanks for the info, Mad. Yeah, I've looked at the HAAS line, and if I could swing one, I'd have probably picked one up. But the only ones I could find in my price range (circa $10K) were clapped-out antique VF-2s, for which I don't have the room, and would cost me $6 or $8K just to get shipped up here.

I offered $11.5K for the 2OP and they accepted it- it's apparently a low-hours 'demo' model recently inspected by Southwest.

Pretty much no possible way I could afford even a used Speedio.

You're also the first person to suggest any issues with the software. Most anyone I've talked to (or read about) seemed to have no difficulties generating a toolpath from SW or F360 and more or less plugging it right in.

True, those people may be used to those quirks, and can make the necessary changes on the fly, but either way, no one seems terribly concerned with it. Do you have one of the older AGE systems or something like the newer TMX?

Doc.

Garwood said:

3 of these little buggers have sold in Seattle area in the past 2 months for dirt cheap. Can you fit one of those?

Click to expand...

-Possibly. Please keep in mind I am no expert on different machines. Personally, I would have been very leery about a $600 VMC. Much as I like rebuilding machines, in this case, I wanted plug-and-play. (Besides hearing horror stories of $5,000 servo drives that can't be found even if you have the money, $10,000 spindle rebuilds, $4,000 servo rebuilds, etc. I'm too green a noob to know what I'm looking at.)

[E]verything's a compromise.

Click to expand...

-Exactly. I don't have the room, I don't have the money, and I don't really have the knowledge.

Other than that, I'm set.

In this case, from everything I've read, ProtoTrak is reasonably well regarded, parts can be had, Southwest is still in business, this particular machine is supposed to be plug-and-play, and while it was at the tight end of the budget, I was able to actually afford it.

Considering the cost of getting something to Alaska I'd sure spend my money on something decent.

Click to expand...

-The thing is, "decent", I'm finding out, is very much a variable. From my reading, there's a few machines and operating systems that have more or less universal support, but get away from those top-tier machines and there seems to be a difference in opinion.

"Decent" for a guy making 50 parts at a time of a low-complexity part, means something entirely else to a guy needing to make 50,000 heavily-controured parts a week.

I'm making a bare handful at a time, of fairly simple parts and out of aluminum. And prior to this machine, I made them using jigs and fixtures in a Bridgeport style manual mill.

This thing may by no means be the epitome of high-speed low-drag manufacturing, but it's a damn sight better than manually cranking handles and watching a DRO.

Doc.

I bought my 2-OP in 2015 and there was a software update around 2017.


Had a small pallet made to fit instead of the modified Kurt Vice, I believe they just cut off the handle to a shorter length.


My space is tight, they had too strip down the top off the machine to get through a low door. I think the newer model with the larger folding screen cannot be stripped down


Works fine for the work that I do.

( I tried to post this about 4 times, and even rotated pictures but they still come out rotated wrong when pre viewed.)

From the email prior too the software update -

Software changes that are on PT8 TMX version 1.14:


Added ability to retain tool offsets between programs, new rules are as follows:




1) When opening a GCD program, we will now always prompt the user if he wishes to keep his existing tool table with offsets and modifiers.




2) When opening a PT4 program, we will now compare the tools in the tool table to the tools saved in the program. Here are the different scenarios possible:




a) If a tool # exists in the tool table, but not in the program, we will now keep the one in the table as is, with offset and modifier.




b) If the tool diameter and description from the tool table match what is in the program, we will keep the existing offset and modifier.




c) If the tool diameter and description from the tool table do not match what is in the program, we will wipe out the offset and modifier, and prompt a new warning message stating that we’ve done so.
3) Regarding Open / Save TEMP, it should work mostly the same as before.




a) If a tool entry exists in the TEMP file, it will always replace whatever is in current tool table, offset and all. In the event that we are replacing a tool with the same diameter and description, but a different offset, we will warn the user that we are replacing the offset.
b) If a tool entry exists in the current tool table, but not in the temp, we will leave the one in the current table intact.




4) We will no longer erase the tool table when the user erases the current program in memory.
Fixed various labeling errors regarding our SHIFT scheme:




The shift numbers in the MULTI PART screen now start with 0 as the base part. Shift #1 should represent the first instance of a shift occuring, much like a repeat.




When starting in the middle of a program, it will now prompt for Shift #, as opposed to Fixture #.
The top of the RUN screen now displays SHIFT # as opposed to Fixture #.




Removed previous restriction of not being able to run programs larger than 1000 events.
Added flashing warning message if spindle or feedrate override is dropped to 0%.
Added code 400 for foreign language support.




Added ability to switch between inch / mm in code 123.




Added fixture offset capability if program loaded from PT4 or PT7 controls.
Fixed multiple screen modes where the green unclamp button would not respond.
Fixed an issue found when turning the EHW during Page Fwd / Page Back transition, it would draw the event incorrectly or jump to the beginning / end of the program.
Fixed a scenario found in Tool Loading where the picture showing which locations had a tool were not being drawn properly.




Fixed the scenario where if using factory defaults, the ATC would run into a limit when attempting to bring the ATC to the front.




Fixed the tool description green message box so that all the tool descriptions are now visible.
Added a status bar in code 319 to clearly show whether logging is on or off.
Fixed issue where starting in the middle of the program would cause the Z axis to rapid to the top limit unexpectedly.




Fixed a case found where defining a ramp entry on certain pocket programs would cause the tool to gouge the part outside of the pocket's defined boundary.




Fixed issue with Repeat # counter not displaying correctly during RUN mode.




Fixed issue with lube pump discharge time not being properly remembered across shut down.
Code 132 was previously incorrectly displaying the EHW counts from -99 to +99, and then would roll over.
Fixed issue with Thread Mill event would sometimes skip the finish pass.
Fixed some cases where a steep thread mill or helix would not run at the correct feedrate.
We will now not allow program to open if it contains mulitple fixtures.
Fixed compatibility issues with tap event saved on the TMX would not properly open on other machines and vice versa.




Fixed issue with not being able to define a negative value in the X or Y dimension from ball lock.
Fixed a scenario where entering a shift offset for a program, and then going into Tool Path would cause the software to shut down unexpectedly.




Fixed issue with tool #'s not being highlighted in the tool table page after opening a GCD program.
Fixed scenario found where entering a negative tool diameter for some GCD programs would cause part of the program to be skipped during RUN mode.




Fixed issue with SAVE TEMP not saving the shift offsets with a GCD program.

Good info, Lion, thanks!

You're even tighter on space than I am, I at least have an 8' door and 10' ceilings. I'm not that cramped yet, but if I'm not careful, I'm heading that way.

Interesting pallet arrangement. I'm getting no workholding at all with the machine, so I'm going to have to pick up something. Simplest is the vise, something that can take soft jaws, but I could see that pallet being quite handy.

Doc.

Another thing I just remembered.

On tool change the bed moves all the way forward on Y axis. Tool changer moves forward very close to back of the bed. When profiling I first take out all large areas as pockets. If a piece drops of the back of the table it can jam in the gap when tool changer moves forward and the tool change will freeze.

Also birds nest can fall off back of table when doing aluminium, that also will stop the tool change.

This shows how short vice has to be.

lionelt said:

If a piece drops of the back of the table it can jam in the gap when tool changer moves forward and the tool change will freeze.

Click to expand...

-I was wondering about that, I've seen examples of that sort of thing by guys with 3D routers and "wine rack" toolholders. Chips and offcuts pile up, the carriage jams, the system loses steps, etc.

Figured that might be an issue here, too, with the work area being so cramped compared to most other VMCs. Definitely something to keep an eye on.

Doc.

The TMX software on the machine can be downloaded for offl line programming from Southwestern Industries that version is free to download I believe. This does tool-path simulation as wire frame. The SMX off line program files will also run on the 2-OP this is what I use, it will read dxf files and the simulation is 3D and you can see it cutting the stock. This has a cost for the dongle

I read you will use Fusion but added this info for anyone else following this thread. I recently bought Alibre Atom with Eze-cam but not yet used it to create G Code.

Hey Lionelt: Can you do me a favor and snap a couple pictures of the top of your machine? Mine is apparently missing a top cover.

It looks like it's supposed to be just a flat panel, and I believe I can make a replacement out of something like 3/16" aluminum, but I'd like to see the real thing to get an idea of what goes where.

Thanks!
Doc.

Are these clear enough?

Rear one without the vent has dropped edges like a tin lid.












Edit...

I did not think to check if rear cover had gap under edge for ventilation.