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Low Ceiling Garage VMC

Djwade

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Hi All,

I'm starting to look seriously into starting to build up part of my garage as my own prototyping shop. I work during the day as an engineer, and have experience with CAM/CNC, and want to continue to develop the skills. I'm extremely limited by my garage ceiling height of about 99", which effectively puts some machines like the Haas minimill and toolroom mills too tall at their max Z travel.

I've been doing a lot of digging, and read through what seems to be an oft-referenced thread about a similar scenario (https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...-footprint-vmc-cnc-lathe-home-garages-352843/) and had come to the conclusion that Fadal was the way to go. Fortunately nearly all of the fadals are around 95" Max vertical height, which fits perfectly. I've been looking at what's out there and finding VMC15s and 2016Ls around the 10k mark. In my mind, I'd like to have one with linear ways, as I'd prefer speed and precision (and future maintenance options) over the rigidity of the boxed ways, given the cost to repair.

The one area where I'd like some input is with regards to what may initially seem a stupid question. I work at a startup that was very small to start, and has had a Tormach 770 as our in house CNC. All we ever machine is Aluminum and plastics for now. When we move to our new location in a few months, we're likely going to upgrade to a new VMC. This has potentially given me the opportunity to get it for very cheap, including all of the TTS tooling.

So as it stands, I have two options I'm considering: The first is to take the Tormach, with known history, 20 tool holders, a haimer 3D taster, electronic tool setter, ATS and enclosure for ~5k, and I can basically start immediately going. This would let me continue to work on my own skills and start making prototypes, despite the limitations of the machine.

The second option is to look to get one of the smaller linear rail Fadals (VMC15, 2016L), and basically take it all apart, go over it, and start building up the tooling. Assuming the prices I'm seeing are accurate, I'll end up closer to 12.5k to 15k, and while it will take a while, I would end up with a much more capable machine.

So therein lies my question: Given the opportunity, do I opt to get the Tormach and use it for a while, then sell it later given their lack of general depreciation when I'm reaching the limit of the machine? Or just forgo it entirely and keep on saving more and looking for a good deal on a Fadal.

As a secondary question, In Speedie's overview of the Fadal models, the 2016L wasn't addressed. Aside from the small travel, is there any reason to avoid them? I've seen them going for 5k-8k fairly routinely.

I know this is probably a straightforward answer to just get the Fadal, but figured I'd offer it up to y'all for some input and advice.

thanks!
 
If you want a hobby, then go ahead and rebuild an old machine.

If you are looking at a serious business endeavor, then get a working machine with support.

I'm pretty sure a Speedio will fit in a 99" tall space... if you are in a place where you can make payments while you grow, you will never regret going with a machine like that over something like a Tormach.

You're not going to get much Tormach love here, but the mission drives the gear train, and if you've got a known quantity machine with local support in the form of your buddy who would sell it to you, that probably makes a of of sense.
 
I recently went through the same decision process. The answer really depends on what what you'll eventually be using the machine for after your immediate need is satisfied. Is prototyping the only purpose for the machine or will you want to be able to do some production runs? What tolerances are required for the parts you want to make? If you will only ever need some one off prototypes with reasonable tolerances and all your parts fit the work envelope, it'd be hard to beat that 770 with tooling for $5k. But if you'll ever want to start making tighter toleranced parts quickly, or you'll need a larger work envelope, you'll need something more capable. I ended up buying a Brother tapping center and all new tooling from Maritool for not much more than you have budgeted for a Fadal.
 
I recently went through the same decision process. The answer really depends on what what you'll eventually be using the machine for after your immediate need is satisfied. Is prototyping the only purpose for the machine or will you want to be able to do some production runs? What tolerances are required for the parts you want to make? If you will only ever need some one off prototypes with reasonable tolerances and all your parts fit the work envelope, it'd be hard to beat that 770 with tooling for $5k. But if you'll ever want to start making tighter toleranced parts quickly, or you'll need a larger work envelope, you'll need something more capable. I ended up buying a Brother tapping center and all new tooling from Maritool for not much more than you have budgeted for a Fadal.

Thanks for the input! Regarding the brother tapping center, what is replacement part availability like? Some of the smaller drill tap centers seemed like good potential options for smaller spaces, but I had concerns about part availability, as well as a general lack of information. It wasn't clear if the older drill tap centers would have the capability to do more complex tool paths.

Are there any models that are similar to keep an eye out for?
 
If you want a hobby, then go ahead and rebuild an old machine.

If you are looking at a serious business endeavor, then get a working machine with support.

I'm pretty sure a Speedio will fit in a 99" tall space... if you are in a place where you can make payments while you grow, you will never regret going with a machine like that over something like a Tormach.

You're not going to get much Tormach love here, but the mission drives the gear train, and if you've got a known quantity machine with local support in the form of your buddy who would sell it to you, that probably makes a of of sense.

Speedios would definitely serve as a great long term solution, but as I start out, it's capability would be wasted on me. I'm doing this as a side gig in addition to my day job, and I expect it to have a slow start. If it grows and develops to the point where I'm looking to have consistent throughput and capabilities, the speedios are at the top of my list. In fact, we're looking at an S500 as our replacement at work.
 
Thanks for the input! Regarding the brother tapping center, what is replacement part availability like? Some of the smaller drill tap centers seemed like good potential options for smaller spaces, but I had concerns about part availability, as well as a general lack of information. It wasn't clear if the older drill tap centers would have the capability to do more complex tool paths.

Are there any models that are similar to keep an eye out for?

I can only speak from my own experience and I've only replaced some minor parts; some way cover parts and filters so far. But Yamazen had the parts to my door in less than 24 hours and their prices were fair. As for information.. there isn't much as far as videos or a dedicated online forum, but all their manuals are available in PDFs, Yamazen is a phone call away, and there are a bunch of users on here that are happy to help.

I'd keep an eye out for anything with the A00 controller. They don't seem to be in demand, and their prices reflect it. It's likely due to their absolutely tiny internal memory and lack of some of the more advanced features of the later controllers, but that's not really an issue for people like us. Just make sure its not conversational only and that it drip feeds if you want to run any modern CAM programs, as not all A00 controllers have that feature.
 
I am a big fan of incremental upgrades. If you can get the Tormach setup for a screamin' deal well below market rate, go for it. You can use it and sell it on down the line at closer to market rate if you want to upgrade to a better machine. I have taken the incremental upgrade route all my machining life, and it has served me well. I have typically gone several years between upgrades.

Jet 1236P -> Colchester Chipmaster -> Monarch 10EE
Clausing 8520 -> Aciera F2 -> Deckel FP2NC & Aciera F4
Ryobi Taiwan drill press -> 1943 Delta 17" w/VFD

Same for things like tool storage, where I started with crappy wooden shelves, moved to steel shelving units and then some used Listas.

One of these years I'd like to upgrade the Deckel to a quieter enclosed machine with an ATC. I am severely limited on vertical height, especially under the garage door header. The new Hurco VM1 caught my eye, as did the new Trak Toolroom VMCs. I need to stop paying my kids' college tuition before I go further.
 
I can only speak from my own experience and I've only replaced some minor parts; some way cover parts and filters so far. But Yamazen had the parts to my door in less than 24 hours and their prices were fair. As for information.. there isn't much as far as videos or a dedicated online forum, but all their manuals are available in PDFs, Yamazen is a phone call away, and there are a bunch of users on here that are happy to help.

I'd keep an eye out for anything with the A00 controller. They don't seem to be in demand, and their prices reflect it. It's likely due to their absolutely tiny internal memory and lack of some of the more advanced features of the later controllers, but that's not really an issue for people like us. Just make sure its not conversational only and that it drip feeds if you want to run any modern CAM programs, as not all A00 controllers have that feature.

2003 and newer will have drip feed capability on a Brother with A00 control. Some older machines may have it if it was upgraded somewhere down the line. Must be S2A or 22A, '99? and up. Easy to tell by looking at the first page of User Parameters. If it has drip feed, one of the first User Parameters will be a choice between Internal Memory or Tape Mode. Models would be TC-S2A, TC-S2B. S2B was better, stronger, faster... ;)
 
I can only speak from my own experience and I've only replaced some minor parts; some way cover parts and filters so far. But Yamazen had the parts to my door in less than 24 hours and their prices were fair. As for information.. there isn't much as far as videos or a dedicated online forum, but all their manuals are available in PDFs, Yamazen is a phone call away, and there are a bunch of users on here that are happy to help.

I'd keep an eye out for anything with the A00 controller. They don't seem to be in demand, and their prices reflect it. It's likely due to their absolutely tiny internal memory and lack of some of the more advanced features of the later controllers, but that's not really an issue for people like us. Just make sure its not conversational only and that it drip feeds if you want to run any modern CAM programs, as not all A00 controllers have that feature.

Thanks for the information! I'll keep my eye out.

Does anyone have any other suggestions to look at that might be in-line with a modern Speedio S300 in size? Or even something as small as a Trak 2OP?
 
Thanks for the information! I'll keep my eye out.

Does anyone have any other suggestions to look at that might be in-line with a modern Speedio S300 in size? Or even something as small as a Trak 2OP?

I know almost nothing about them, but there are also Robodrills in that size. Late 90's models are in your price range.
 
To revisit an earlier question: Is there anything to keep an eye out for with the 2016L? Any reason to avoid or to go for a VMC15 over it?
 
This 1995 Fadal is available at one of our clients in Ontario, CA.. They say it is running good. They need to make room for two new Speedios getting delivered in about 3 weeks. You can save by buying direct instead of through a dealer. Anyone interested contact me and I will help you get in touch with them.

20200917_092432.jpg

Bonus: it is their last 40 taper machine so all of the tool holders will likely go with it.
 
Sent you a PM, but not showing up in my sent messages. Let me know if it didn't go through.
 
This 1995 Fadal is available at one of our clients in Ontario, CA.. They say it is running good. They need to make room for two new Speedios getting delivered in about 3 weeks. You can save by buying direct instead of through a dealer. Anyone interested contact me and I will help you get in touch with them.

View attachment 300235

Bonus: it is their last 40 taper machine so all of the tool holders will likely go with it.

Can you possibly find another machine so rigid for it's size?
I doubt it.
 








 
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