M560V vs CMX 1100V - New Machine Purchase
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    Default M560V vs CMX 1100V - New Machine Purchase

    My team is currently evaluating a new machine purchase and has narrowed our choices down to an M560V or a CMX1100V. Our internal findings/research has indicated the M560V to be more rigid, and a higher class machine, but the spec.'s provided by DMG indicate similar performance. There is obviously a lot to consider in this purchase, and this will be our first VMC of this caliber, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated on the machines above. We will primarily be cutting aluminum (6061/7075) with small amounts of hardened steel in the mix looking for normal machine tolerances.

    Thanks for any help, mods please move if I put it in the wrong forum.

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    I bet on the 560 From Hartwig. Was a great Experience and the machine has been excellent. It was my second new machine replacing a couple Haas and pairing with the Brother 700X 16k B+

    Since then have added a 460-5AX and L2000mY So you could say Harwig and Okuma Earned my hard work. ($$$)

    MY Shop is in SGF,MO if you want to stop in and see one in person.

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    Thanks for the reply, greatly appreciate the feedback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnrw View Post
    My team is currently evaluating a new machine purchase and has narrowed our choices down to an M560V or a CMX1100V. Our internal findings/research has indicated the M560V to be more rigid, and a higher class machine, but the spec.'s provided by DMG indicate similar performance. There is obviously a lot to consider in this purchase, and this will be our first VMC of this caliber, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated on the machines above. We will primarily be cutting aluminum (6061/7075) with small amounts of hardened steel in the mix looking for normal machine tolerances.

    Thanks for any help, mods please move if I put it in the wrong forum.
    any reason you're not considering Doosan DNM5700S?

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    It was recommended, but we heard some bad things about Ellison support. Do you believe it is a machine we should consider?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnrw View Post
    It was recommended, but we heard some bad things about Ellison support. Do you believe it is a machine we should consider?
    i deff would. we have one, as well as 2 4500's and they've been really solid for us. our local ellison support is really good also, but YMMV

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    The M560V is likely more rigid, while the CMX-1100V has much better chip evacuation.

    If you're cutting a ton of aluminum, chip evac is more important. The CMX's table only moves in X and the way covers are slanted at 45 degrees.

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    Everyone has their preference, but to me, the Okuma is the one to get. The 560V I saw at Morris was one tank of a machine. The Okuma OSP controller is the tops in my book, too. Just my opinion, but Okuma is the one. DMG is good, and you won't be buying junk if you get it, but I think the Okuma is better.

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    It is $4k for the chip shower option, but that is the one thing I wish I had bought on my M560-V but I can always hook it up later for less then $1k in parts. This machine is a BEAST. I do parts that start as 8"x2" 6061-T6511 in lengths of 18-30" and I remove 40-60% of the material in about a 35 minute cycle time. That is without through coolant (yet) for the drilling. My roughing tools are at 30-40% spindle load so I've got a lot more I can get out of it.

    The first few days I was running it I thought my AC was broken and the shop temperature went up 12deg F over a day and the machine was holding 0.0001-0.0002" true position on a couple of holes. It really is an amazing high end machine - not sure how they sell if for what they do.

    I'm also impressed with the accel/decel for such a huge machine. It is not a Speedio but for its size it is peppy. About the fastest I've run toolpaths on it is 430ipm. Toolchanges are slow because it is just a big machine - long way to move to the toolchange position.

    I would not want to have the machine without spindle probing and toolsetting. The GUI form Renishaw is fantastic, and the macro tool breakage detection is really easy to use. The actual installation seems a little hokey (spelling?) but it works.

    The control is very, very easy to use. Like the Brother C00 but maybe even easier as it does seem to have less Japanglish going on. You will never choke this thing for code, either.

    If you have other questions let me know.

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    Rick is right on with the 560.

    It's thermal comp is excellent. It will hold .0001-.0002 all day, I've done it. You can call up the right parameter screen and watch it track temps and comp the positions.

    Chip flow does suck, no way around it, but I've never had it cause a stoppage or damage anything. It's just annoying when you have a machine full of chips and they hang up everywhere when you are trying to clean it out. 4k for a chip wash is money well spent and you'll have a monster of a machine.

    I've machined at 800 IPM with feed mills no problem, it tops out at pretty much the rapid speed of 1200 IPM. The motion control is also excellent, the accel and decel parameters are easily adjusted along with a tolerance window that you set and the control adjusts speed to keep motion error in the range.

    It surfaces very well, does a good job of hogging for a linear 40 taper, will chew through HSM code better than any control I've seen and has been very reliable. The H frame, twin column whatever you want to call it design is superior to the CMX or a C frame as far as rigidity is concerned. It's a 20K lbs hunk of solid.

    Morris and Hartwig also have pretty good reps for service in most areas, but thats a big deal, that would influence my decision in a big way.

    You can't really go wrong with your choices, both of good machines but the 560 the weapon of choice in that price range.

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    Almost unrelated, But just giving a shout out to Okuma thermal comp on a 20 year old MacTurn. They had that figured out back then......

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    Everyone,

    Just wanted to say thanks for the reply's - they are extremely helpful!

    TrollTuner - we would love to chat with you on the phone if you have time, we are up in the Clinton, MO area, just north of you.

    We had a follow-up call with the DMG Mori guys and two points they made are below:

    1. Okuma doesn't offer conversational programming like the DMG, not sure of the true value of this feature.

    2. The DMG chip auger has a chip bucket to help with the small chips from aluminum.

    Any additional feedback on this would be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnrw View Post
    We had a follow-up call with the DMG Mori guys and two points they made are below:

    1. Okuma doesn't offer conversational programming like the DMG, not sure of the true value of this feature.

    2. The DMG chip auger has a chip bucket to help with the small chips from aluminum.
    If those are the best arguments DMG Mori can make for their brand new, highly touted, 4th attempt at making a standard 40x20 VMC platform... You need to buy the Okuma.

    Mori use to make the Dura Vertical, which was sort of the gold-standard in the class. Then the DMG tieup happened, and they took this fantastic machine out back, shot it, and tried to replace it with the EcoMill. 5 year old EcoMills that sold for $100k new can be had on eBay for $20k with low hours because they were trash. Then they cooked up another 40x20 machine that I forgot the name of, in an attempt to catch the DuraVertical magic back. It also landed on the market with a thud.

    Now they have the CMX, and it looks like a space ship and all, but in the interim, the shit machines with shit support have basically ruined DMG Mori's reputation. Humph!

    I worked on a 25 year old MX 4020 at a client's shop. Across the aisle from it was a 2001 MV-56. At another shop, I've gotten to work with a 2019 M560. You know what? They are fundamentally the same damn machine. The god damn thing is the Porsche 911 of mills; Okuma just keeps evolving it, tweaking it, improving it, and banging those bastards out. The result is threads like this - nothing but praise for the Genos (except it's chip handling!). The thing is a god damn beast, and you should buy it.

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    "conversational programming"
    In today's world I just cant see how that could possibly be usefull.
    Easily edited interface yes, but standing in front of a machine punching buttons cant make you money

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    The problem with the M560 is getting chips off the large low-sloped way covers and the outside angles of the cabinet. Once chips get to the augers, there are no issues. I do a lot of engraving in aluminum and make some very tiny chips. There is a basket off the bottom of the conveyor (which I clean out monthly), and then several filter screens before the sump where the pumps are that settle out everything else. I cleaned the sump once in year - it is quite a good design.

    The Okuma also has some REALLY nice manual use features. It is the easiest CNC I've run to use like a Bridgeport where I just wanna throw something in there, call a tool, and face something off or cut the end off something, or drill a hole or two. Way faster than any conversational I've seen. It also has manual interrupt and recovery features where you can pause the program, run the tool out of the cut and bring the workpiece to you for inspection, and then get back to where it was easily. You can also recover after something happens mid-toolpath in a few ways.

    Funny thing is, I know I've got a manual for some kind of conversational programming for an OSP control but I've never looked at it. I think there might be something built in there but it may not be turned on. They call it "Advanced One Touch" or AOT if I remember? It might be a lathe-only thing, too, that I just remember from the sales brochures. At the old shop they bought a bunch of garbage machines (Hurcos) because of the conversational programing and other than the guy who went to training not a single person used it, ever. On six machines last I heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    <snip>

    The Okuma also has some REALLY nice manual use features. It is the easiest CNC I've run to use like a Bridgeport where I just wanna throw something in there, call a tool, and face something off or cut the end off something, or drill a hole or two. Way faster than any conversational I've seen. It also has manual interrupt and recovery features where you can pause the program, run the tool out of the cut and bring the workpiece to you for inspection, and then get back to where it was easily. You can also recover after something happens mid-toolpath in a few ways.

    <snip>
    ^^^ That's particularly meaningful esp. for prototype work tricky set ups / fast work.

    That's a good share - wasn't aware of that.

    Does bug me how conventional CNC workflow can be obstructive to more hands on quick or fiddly set ups.

    I asked an Okuma tech to show me various aspects of the control - in very broad strokes - and he looked quite threatened and said "Hurco has some good iron... " like "Okaaaaaay " .

    _________________


    The CMX series size wise tops out at a 4020 type machine but claim a biggish working volume / longer table.

    The GENOS M660-V - (e) ? looks really good 59" X travel and table, + 26" ish in Y and bigger / higher in Z than the 560.

    somewhat over the $200K range.

    The point being 'One" could buy a M560V and then spend $60K on a longer travel (not so accurate and not so fantastic spindled) bed-mill with 60" travels or one could splurge on a Genos M-660V [Maybe] for more or less the same price ~ depends how you want to tie your machines up and various aims / needs for longer larger and heavier work pieces. [50 taper option and larger spindle bearing on the 660 as well.].

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Does bug me how conventional CNC workflow can be obstructive to more hands on quick or fiddly set ups.
    If doing quick setups and basic work are really something you do often, it is easy enough to create a couple of parametric templates in your CAD/CAM system for doing them. You model up a basic block shape driven by an equation/variable that you can change quickly, another variable for the amount of stock. Send it over to the CAM side where you have the work offsets, tools, and operations already set up and you're done.

    Holes? Same thing, but you'll be creating the hole geometry in the existing block. Have all the tools/feeds/speeds set up in CAM for the common sizes and materials you work with.

    With templates like this, you can have very sophisticated G-code banged out in a couple of minutes. If you are working around the core tools you keep in the machine all the time, we're talking 5 minutes of setup. Way faster/easier than any on-control bullshit I've ever seen.

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    Not arguing against the Genos M560 one bit.
    If however, you need automation and wanted it single sourced with one PO and one service contact you could look at this guy:
    https://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfm...l-p-900_en.pdf

    Very similar in design and I think it's competitive when looking at automation packages. Pretty cool having the pallets come in from the back, through the columns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    Not arguing against the Genos M560 one bit.
    If however, you need automation and wanted it single sourced with one PO and one service contact you could look at this guy:
    https://www.gfms.com/content/dam/gfm...l-p-900_en.pdf

    Very similar in design and I think it's competitive when looking at automation packages. Pretty cool having the pallets come in from the back, through the columns.
    Ok I am weak - you have weakened my resolve...

    3 axis bridge wall machine made of synthetic granite.

    Machine looks almost sexy.

    Better than a 3 axis hermle.

    How much , base model for garnitan mold machine ? (any idea ?)

    BTW OP kinda said "Normal machine Tolerances"

    But I'm curious vs Makino F3/F5 and V33i.

    __________________________________________________ ________

    Fundamentally the Genos M 560V is a heavier machine and the CMX 1100V is a lighter machine ~ Personally think the CMX 1100V is a very clever design for its weight class.



    CMX 1100V is 12,100 lbs and the Okuma Genos M 560V is 18,293 lbs (according to my math) ,

    So not really in the same class at all.

    If I was going to say something +ve for the CMX 1100V is scales as standard , the (optional) DD drive 4th axis rotary clamps really accurately to 5 arc seconds positions to 3 arc seconds. CMX 1100V has 20K rpm spindle option and roller guide trucks and linear bearings with "X" ( > < ) formation vs. ball bearing linear slides and trucks on the Genos. The CMX 1100V seems like a "Nerdier" machine and lighter than the Okuma Genos M 560V. Not sure how floor space compares ?

    It's odd to me that the decision would go down to M560V vs. CMX100V as if you really want a M560V "Peeps" just do that, and if you really want a CMX 1100V "Peeps" just dooooo that. + 60 tools and various automation options. (supposedly turn key).

    I guess it's an either - OR in Op's case 'cuz they cost about the same ?

    The Genos will pretty much last forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Ok I am weak - you have weakened my resolve...

    3 axis bridge wall machine made of synthetic granite.

    Machine looks almost sexy.

    Better than a 3 axis hermle.

    How much , base model for garnitan mold machine ? (any idea ?)

    BTW OP kinda said "Normal machine Tolerances"

    But I'm curious vs Makino F3/F5 and V33i.

    __________________________________________________ ________

    Fundamentally the Genos M 560V is a heavier machine and the CMX 1100V is a lighter machine ~ Personally think the CMX 1100V is a very clever design for its weight class.



    CMX 1100V is 12,100 lbs and the Okuma Genos M 560V is 18,293 lbs (according to my math) ,

    So not really in the same class at all.

    If I was going to say something +ve for the CMX 1100V is scales as standard , the (optional) DD drive 4th axis rotary clamps really accurately to 5 arc seconds positions to 3 arc seconds. CMX 1100V has 20K rpm spindle option and roller guide trucks and linear bearings with "X" ( > < ) formation vs. ball bearing linear slides and trucks on the Genos. The CMX 1100V seems like a "Nerdier" machine and lighter than the Okuma Genos M 560V. Not sure how floor space compares ?

    It's odd to me that the decision would go down to M560V vs. CMX100V as if you really want a M560V "Peeps" just do that, and if you really want a CMX 1100V "Peeps" just dooooo that. + 60 tools and various automation options. (supposedly turn key).

    I guess it's an either - OR in Op's case 'cuz they cost about the same ?

    The Genos will pretty much last forever.
    i just set eyes on a Mill P 500 yesterday... OH MY! <3
    that thing is just an absolute DREAM! Mikron is doing some very fucking impressive shit.

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