Machine Recommendation under 125k
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  1. #1
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    Default Machine Recommendation under 125k

    I know, another "recommend me a machine'' thread, apologies in advance.

    I am nobody special. I got into CNC because I build my own parts for racing and I currently have a 2000 VF2 in my shop. It's nothing special but has treated me pretty well and I'm looking for something a little bigger, faster, etc.

    I deal almost primarily with 2xxx,6xxx, and 7xxx series aluminum with a little titanium. 80/20 I'd say. I do quite a bit of surfacing and a lot of material removal on parts under 30", but would like a larger machine.

    I see a need for a 5th in the future, so that would be a consideration later down the road as well.

    My machine budget is 125k, and I'd like to get an idea of what you'd all recommend.

    I've talked to brother, Doosan, and okuma thus far.

    Thanks all.

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    It’s pretty hard to beat something like a VF/VM3SS considering your budget. Hell you can get into a UMC750 for about $145k with a 12k spindle.

    I’m not a big Haas fanboy but with them you’d have enough left in your budget to update your tooling and work holding or even add a 4th or 5th axis.

    Absolutely nothing against brother but I’m not sure why you’re talking to them if you’re in the bigger and faster camp. All your choices are solid so it’s really going to come down to support in your area.

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    I did a fair amount of titanium work in our VF2 4th axis, I would not recommend it. I was checking nearly every part because it wouldn't hold tolerance, Haas machines are just not rigid enough to do titanium properly. That said, we made it work, and it was reasonably reliable, just not appropriate for +-.001 in hard to machine materials (I don't know that I'd consider any Haas appropriate for +-.001 in ANY material, but it's what we had).

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    If you feel like you need to buy New, then you are pretty limited in the Bigger Faster arena. Hazzert has it about right as far a New Machinery goes.

    If you are okay with used then it opens a lot of doors. But it'll end up being a mile long thread.

    R

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    Have you looked into something like this?

    Similar work volume to a VF3, but the machine is about 3000 pounds heavier. Not sure on price...

    hurco.jpg


    PM

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    5axis-vises-s1000.jpg

    The S1000 is really nice and is close to your price range including the tilting rotary. 10k High Torque or 16k spindle available. To do a 30" part you will need the S1000 (40 x 20)

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    Normally I would say stick with a Haas since that's is what you already have. No need to change control types, you already have the tooling, you can get a 40" machine for half of your budget. Key word there was budget. I don't know your business plan so not sure if you plan on getting into more Ti stuff but with that kind of money you could get a nice box way machine and just be done with it. The Doosan Mynx 5400 is a 40" machine, BIG-PLUS spindle with all the bells and whistles and maybe have enough left over for a rotary axis.

    The ROI on a VF3-SS I'm sure would be super quick and if you plan on a larger portion of your parts being Aluminum and plastics then I think that would be the way to go. And if you had to get some Ti parts out just nurse it a bit and feel warm and fuzzy with that $60K cushion you saved still in the bank.

    Sure, you can throw Mori, Okuma, Mazak, Takisawa, Hermle in the mix and in the end you are getting a heavier machine but they are all still Linear guide machines with a higher price tag.

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    They may not have anything close to that price range but I'd still check what Makino has to offer and how their service is for your area.
    When it comes too good fast surfacing, software/processing, look ahead, accurate tool path, and that sort of thing is pretty damn important and quickly sets machines apart a lot more than a couple thousand pounds of iron. If you consider haas at least look at the VM series, supposed to be a fair bit better at that.
    Okuma Genos is probably best bang for the $ though.
    When it comes to Brother, there was some talk here before of some other settings to adjust so it follows an actual tool path and doesn't round it by a lot for extra speed, so check into what that might mean on your programming side of things, maybe its easy to set in the CAM post and leave it, maybe not so much vs others. I'm also not sold on 30 taper for heavy material removal.
    How many tools a machine can hold matters for some too.

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    By the time you option out a Haas enough to make it even remotely competitive with most of the Japanese offerings, you'll end up spending the same or more. A VF2SSYT with most of the options (4th only, no 5th) wound up at $122k delivered due to some weird rigging requirements for our building, but the machine itself was around 110 IIRC. A Genos M560V was the same price without the rotary, and it's easily twice the machine - hell, it's more than double the mass. The Kitamura we quoted for comparison was ~8k less than the Okuma. As far as I can tell, just about any Japanese 40x20 machine will be in the $110-130k range, and they all have nearly identical specs on paper, so it comes down to the control you like the most. I was very impressed by the Okuma control.

    If you buy a Haas, you NEED the high speed machining option to get the machine to perform at the base level offered by other machine tool builders. My mini mill won't smoothly interpolate a circle above 30 IPM without it.

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    You said Titanium...which means the answer is not Haas. It's Okuma, or a box way kitamura. The standard m560 will eat Titanium all day...I've done it and it won't even notice cutting aluminum.

    In that price range the answer is the M560 period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roboman01 View Post
    wound up at $122k delivered due to some weird rigging requirements for our building, but the machine itself was around 110 IIRC. A Genos M560V was the same price without the rotary, and it's easily twice the machine - hell, it's more than double the mass.
    They have substantially raised the prices on the Genos from a couple of years ago. My quote 15 months ago had a base price of $125k, and the starting price is now $135k for the M560V base. Options are also eye wateringly expensive - $12k for the same probes Haas offers for $5.5k, double the price for the rotary, and expect to pay $8k for the 4th axis drives and wiring.

    Honestly, if I needed a 40x20 VMC, the Okuma would be my go-to option, but DMG Mori's fuckery in screwing up a good thing with the DuraVertical has left a hole in the market that allows Okuma to continually raise the price on the Genos. Perhaps it will come back down as Doosan convinces more and more folks that they make a good machine in this class? Until that happens, Okuma is gonna squeeze what they can out of the M560v.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    They have substantially raised the prices on the Genos from a couple of years ago. My quote 15 months ago had a base price of $125k, and the starting price is now $135k for the M560V base. Options are also eye wateringly expensive - $12k for the same probes Haas offers for $5.5k, double the price for the rotary, and expect to pay $8k for the 4th axis drives and wiring.

    Honestly, if I needed a 40x20 VMC, the Okuma would be my go-to option, but DMG Mori's fuckery in screwing up a good thing with the DuraVertical has left a hole in the market that allows Okuma to continually raise the price on the Genos. Perhaps it will come back down as Doosan convinces more and more folks that they make a good machine in this class? Until that happens, Okuma is gonna squeeze what they can out of the M560v.
    This is close to what I was quoted. They had a 4th of July sale that ends today, but the M560 was 105k base, but 7k on the 4th option, and limited to 32 Tools if I recall. Their probe was pretty over priced as well. The sales guy I talked to struggled to answer a lot of questions that I had as well, and that kind of turned me off.

    I don't feel that Haas is the answer for me. To option one out was as much as an Okuma/Doosan and I'd still feel like I wouldn't be getting as good of a machine, especially in the 6AL-4V.

    I initially talked to Brother because of the positive following that they have here, but I am not sold on the BT30.

    Doosan has been good to talk with. Their DNM5700S checks all of the boxes, but there aren't a lot out there and getting feedback on them has been tough. Anybody running these machines?

    I can give Makino a call, but I doubt they'd have anything in my price range.

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    I would buy a Haas VF2SS with a trunnion. That should put you well below your budget price and leave you room for tooling and better CAM software. They are not the best machine by any means, but they hold their value very well, and are quick and easy to fix. Zero learning curve and it could be on your floor in 3 weeks.

    I have been running Haas machines since the late '90s. They have treated me well and made me a good bit of money. If you are a smart programmer and make your money on the design side rather than on the piece price, they are good for what they do. I sometimes get an urge to buy "better" machines, but then I remember that my machines have never been down for more than 12 hours in 20 years.

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    There's a reason Haas is the #1 CNC seller...and dont kid yourself, not everyone is cutting only aluminum for tinker toys with them.

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    I'm using a 2015 VF-3SS with a TR-160Y trunnion for Titanium bone plates and 17-4 H900 surgical implements. Last spring I had a big push and ran 24-7 for three months. It's been reliable and productive, and holds tenths all day long. Price as optioned came to about $150k.

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    Not going to lie, a bit surprised at all the Haas recommendations.

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    It’s based on your budget, presumably you’re not making parts that go to space and have had success with a Haas so why jump off the deep end with more machine than you need?

    We have an Okuma MV4020 and I have had more surprises taking a program that works fine on a Haas and suddenly having issues than I have ever had going the opposite direction and we don’t program for specific machines here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    Not going to lie, a bit surprised at all the Haas recommendations.
    Really? I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find many shops that don't have a Haas in there somewhere. It's usually hidden behind the used toilet paper, but most shops at least have experience with them. Only Okuma and older Hardinge here....except the VF2 and the Sodick that we keep in the women's restroom. Seriously the Haas isn't on the Website or in any pics or anything, pretty funny. But they (Haas') have their place.

    If you're serious, you need more budget. Not much, but another 20-30k would really be a game changer.

    R

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    I had a Doosan DNM5700 and it was a nice machine .. But the control Fanuc oi-F sucked and the local dealer support was just not there for it .. I had a vf4ss before I ordered the DNM5700 and I still have it along with some smaller VF2SS mills ... I run the same programs between then and have found the VF2SS mills to be "MORE" ridged than the larger vf4ss mill.

    I came from programming slow and low RPM machines but once I get my self reprogrammed to run light cuts but go like hell I have found I can get a lot of parts off the Haas machines fast ...

    If you watch the Haas website you well find them on sale about non stop and can get a base model vf2ss for under 55K and one semi loaded ( Auger, HS machining and probing for about 64K . There is no better machine out there for that kinda money ...

    Yes a Okuma 560 is a heavier and more ridged machine but for the parts I build it would not be any faster and I can get two of the vf2ss for the price of one Okuma .

    FYI
    The newer Haas machines have changed a LOT over the last 20 years ,, it would be safe to say Alum parts can be made 3 or 4 times faster on a new vf2ss than on a 2000 model vf2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    Not going to lie, a bit surprised at all the Haas recommendations.
    If you'd have asked me five years ago I certainly wouldn't have recommended a Haas, but this machine has been surprisingly good. I think part of the image issue is that a lot of people treat a Haas as "only a Haas", so they don't take care of it and give it the good tooling, workholding, and care that they would give a machine with a better reputation. You can make any machine not hold a tolerance.

    We have PM and calibration done once a year, and I'm using Lang workholding, shrink fit holders, and mostly Harvey and Helical cutters. How many people who's Haas won't hold a tolerance have never had it calibrated and skimp on the PM?

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