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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    Not going to lie, a bit surprised at all the Haas recommendations.
    I'm guessing that most of the people that recommend Haas actually write the checks to Haas themselves

    They are cheap, work good enough, and can be fixed in a couple hours when they break. If it doesn't work out, you can sell them in a couple of hours on Craigslist without breaking the bank. (I'm either describing a machine or my next wife)

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    If you'd have asked me five years ago I certainly wouldn't have recommended a Haas, but this machine has been surprisingly good. I think part of the image issue is that a lot of people treat a Haas as "only a Haas", so they don't take care of it and give it the good tooling, workholding, and care that they would give a machine with a better reputation. You can make any machine not hold a tolerance.

    We have PM and calibration done once a year, and I'm using Lang workholding, shrink fit holders, and mostly Harvey and Helical cutters. How many people who's Haas won't hold a tolerance have never had it calibrated and skimp on the PM?
    That is one of the hang ups on me buying a used Haas. I feel that people neglect them pretty aggressively. They are used in educational environments and if they aren't, most are beat until they are replaced.

    So let me ask you this sir, what kind of tolerances are you holding with your Haas reliably? One of the jobs I want to use this new machine for would require the machine to hold +/-.0003 interpolation. Not sure if I would trust the Haas to hold that.

    I know my machine is pretty damn old at this point, but how is the new Haas' with 3D surfacing? If I decide to go with the Haas, is the VM worth the additional cost (~10k)?


    Thanks again.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    That is one of the hang ups on me buying a used Haas. I feel that people neglect them pretty aggressively. They are used in educational environments and if they aren't, most are beat until they are replaced.
    Valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    So let me ask you this sir, what kind of tolerances are you holding with your Haas reliably? One of the jobs I want to use this new machine for would require the machine to hold +/-.0003 interpolation. Not sure if I would trust the Haas to hold that.

    I know my machine is pretty damn old at this point, but how is the new Haas' with 3D surfacing? If I decide to go with the Haas, is the VM worth the additional cost (~10k)?


    Thanks again.
    This machine was installed brand new at the very end of 2015, and I've been the only user, so I know it's been treated well and not abused too much. I have bumped it a couple of times, but no serious crashes. It will interpolate within .0002" reliably, often .0001". It does 3D surfacing pretty well, and I use the high feed codes for that and dynamic paths.

    Some of my typical parts, about 3" long:

    7537-1.jpg
    7376-r.jpg

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  6. #24
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    An actual part. You can see some tooling marks after the media blast, but that's a tradeoff for cycle time. 17-4 H900, about three hours per part.

    guideblock-01.jpg
    guideblock-02.jpg

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    That is one of the hang ups on me buying a used Haas. I feel that people neglect them pretty aggressively. They are used in educational environments and if they aren't, most are beat until they are replaced.

    So let me ask you this sir, what kind of tolerances are you holding with your Haas reliably? One of the jobs I want to use this new machine for would require the machine to hold +/-.0003 interpolation. Not sure if I would trust the Haas to hold that.

    I know my machine is pretty damn old at this point, but how is the new Haas' with 3D surfacing? If I decide to go with the Haas, is the VM worth the additional cost (~10k)?


    Thanks again.
    I don't really have any problem holding tolerance with a Haas. They are plenty accurate. I would be more concerned about holding tolerance when you are pushing them too hard in difficult material; that is when the light weight construction becomes an issue. You develop a feel for what a Haas will do and what it won't do. For instance, I have one machine roughing right now at 300 IPM, I expect some defects and tolerance issues. But I slow down for a finish pass at 49 inches per minute and hold exceptional tolerance and surface finish. Another machine is surfacing injection molds... it's not overly fast, but it runs overnight and I get a pretty good part in the morning. I'm certainly not saying Haas is the best machine out there, there are many better machines on the market. I'm just saying that the return on investment is pretty darn good. I'm not a salesman, I'm just another yahoo with a handful of machines that I bought to support my family. They all run 10 hours per day and I'm pretty happy with them.

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  9. #26
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    Doosan has been good to talk with. Their DNM5700S checks all of the boxes, but there aren't a lot out there and getting feedback on them has been tough. Anybody running these machines?
    The Doosan is an excellent machine. The reason you may not be getting a lot of feedback is Ellison is absolutely swamped since the bean counters at DMG went and screwed everything up. Ellison is picking up the slack on DMG Mori service since DMG cant get their heads out of their ass. But Doosan is a heavy,well built machine so more than likely they would set it up and you would be on your way. If you did need service I believe Doosan would put priority on you rather than the DMG.

    Like I said in my earlier post "You can get the Doosan with box ways". For me that's a serious selling point. I'm an old school guy that grew up on Box way machines. You just cant get that rigidity out of linear guides, I guess there is the reason you cant find a 150 HP machine anymore.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    An actual part. You can see some tooling marks after the media blast, but that's a tradeoff for cycle time. 17-4 H900, about three hours per part.

    guideblock-01.jpg
    guideblock-02.jpg
    Was this on one of the Haas rotaries?

  11. #28
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    I guess it really comes down to a couple things. I simply can not build a new VF3 for the price of the Doosan with like options. Granted Haas has pretty good sales, but none at the moment. All things being equal, the Haas VF3 is about 10k more than the DNM5700S, and 20k more for the VM3.

    If I decide to go with a used machine, I believe the ROI on the Haas has a huge advantage. I suppose I need to decide on new versus used.

    I see the VM series has the HSK63 option. Do they offer any other dual contact spindles? How big of a difference would the big plus spindle make for me with the Doosan?

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    I would get an M560V! I have one and it's a great machine. They will negotiate on the options. The probes are a must have IMO. I'll never buy a machine without them now that I know what you can do with them. Your budget is so close you might as well just go with the better machine.

    The doosan would be the only other choice if price is the deciding factor. There iron is good. The control is good but a pita fanuc, but still good.

    I wouldn't buy a haas. The only machines they make that are decent are there mills. There lathes suck, there horizontals really suck, pretty much anything other than there 3 axis mills suck. There overpriced, and they continue to ignore the new technology that's out there. They dont offer a big plus spindle in any machine. There too cheap to use pretension ballscrews. Pretty much everyone else uses them. They dont have one machine with an integral spindle with a chiller. Do your homework check out the differences in construction. There's nowhere to go with haas. They used to be a good bargain but there popularity has driven there prices up so high that there close in price, or more expensive, to some really great machines from really great builders. The Genos M560V is okumas entry level machine they build many higher level machines.

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  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    Was this on one of the Haas rotaries?
    Yes for the "A" side, doing 3+2 on a TR-160Y, four up on a tombstone fixture. Bottom is 3 axis in soft jaws.

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  16. #31
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    I'm surprised the brother brigade isn't in here trying to peddle those machines.

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    For me when comparing a VF3SS to a DNM5700 I was actually surprised that by the time I had the Haas configured to as close as I could get it to the standard equipment on the Doosan the Haas was $10k more expensive.

    None of that would get me the thousands of pound of extra beef in the Doosan plus the larger linear guides, Big Plus spindle, etc., etc.

    When I was looking at used the Haas were so popular because every down and dirty job shop used an old Haas everyone was comfortable with them and the prices were WAY too high. I could pick up a used Mori or Okuma for the same price. Also the prices of accessories like memory and such made even the Japanese stuff look fair.

    In the end I went with a new DNM5700 with the 12k and a 40T changer. Ellison has bent over backwards to make me happy and so far it has never had an issue so I am very happy with the purchase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
    For me when comparing a VF3SS to a...
    Why on God's Green Earth would anyone consider a VF3xx ( or a VF1xx for that matter ) for ANYTHING!!!

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  22. #34
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    I used to be a Haas guy, actually - I learned on them in high school, starting with the '08 generation machines and have used every major revision of the control between '01 and NGC. My NGC Super Mini Mill is nowhere near the quality of machine that anything from the mid '00s was. The control is unreliable, ignores button presses sometimes, drives endmills into the sides of parts on proven-out programs sometimes, ignores probe triggers sometimes, and is severely limited in its ability to follow a path at higher feedrates. Some of that is a hardware limitation, I'll admit. It's a light-duty, entry-level machine. Still, I don't think the value is there anymore. It got me where I needed to be over the past year or so, and there really isn't much else to compete with it in the entry-level market at that price point. There's a LOT of competition when you get into 30x20 and 40x20 world, and I would never consider a new Haas against the other options out there in that market segment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfalke View Post
    I did a fair amount of titanium work in our VF2 4th axis, I would not recommend it. I was checking nearly every part because it wouldn't hold tolerance, Haas machines are just not rigid enough to do titanium properly. That said, we made it work, and it was reasonably reliable, just not appropriate for +-.001 in hard to machine materials (I don't know that I'd consider any Haas appropriate for +-.001 in ANY material, but it's what we had).
    If you can't hold +/-.001 you are doing something wrong, OR your machine is beat to literal shit. We do +/-.0005" all day everyday. Yes it is aluminum and brass where I am at, but I have done this with toolsteels too, it's not a big deal...

    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    I would get an M560V! I have one and it's a great machine. They will negotiate on the options. The probes are a must have IMO. I'll never buy a machine without them now that I know what you can do with them. Your budget is so close you might as well just go with the better machine.

    The doosan would be the only other choice if price is the deciding factor. There iron is good. The control is good but a pita fanuc, but still good.

    I wouldn't buy a haas. The only machines they make that are decent are there mills. There lathes suck, there horizontals really suck, pretty much anything other than there 3 axis mills suck. There overpriced, and they continue to ignore the new technology that's out there. They dont offer a big plus spindle in any machine. There too cheap to use pretension ballscrews. Pretty much everyone else uses them. They dont have one machine with an integral spindle with a chiller. Do your homework check out the differences in construction. There's nowhere to go with haas. They used to be a good bargain but there popularity has driven there prices up so high that there close in price, or more expensive, to some really great machines from really great builders. The Genos M560V is okumas entry level machine they build many higher level machines.
    I ran one for years and years cutting 4140ph and holding +.001/-0 on big diameter parts (well bigger than the chuck (not dmf big like 100 feet ) LoL - 10-11" finished diameters). The problem with Haas bashers IMO, is they try to run them like a 'premium' brand machine with larger castings, more weight, etc and then say "what a POS! " Not any different than trying to drive your ford focus (insert any 'regular' car you want here) like a race car....

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  25. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I had a Doosan DNM5700 and it was a nice machine .. But the control Fanuc oi-F sucked and the local dealer support was just not there for it .. I had a vf4ss before I ordered the DNM5700 and I still have it along with some smaller VF2SS mills ... I run the same programs between then and have found the VF2SS mills to be "MORE" ridged than the larger vf4ss mill.

    I came from programming slow and low RPM machines but once I get my self reprogrammed to run light cuts but go like hell I have found I can get a lot of parts off the Haas machines fast ...

    If you watch the Haas website you well find them on sale about non stop and can get a base model vf2ss for under 55K and one semi loaded ( Auger, HS machining and probing for about 64K . There is no better machine out there for that kinda money ...

    Yes a Okuma 560 is a heavier and more ridged machine but for the parts I build it would not be any faster and I can get two of the vf2ss for the price of one Okuma .

    FYI
    The newer Haas machines have changed a LOT over the last 20 years ,, it would be safe to say Alum parts can be made 3 or 4 times faster on a new vf2ss than on a 2000 model vf2.
    No you can't.

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    We do this discussion all the time. Haas doesn't build a machine even in the same ball park as the 560 for any price..it's a dual column, with good iron, awesome thermal comp and a control faster than anything haas has thought about making...it has Hi-cut pro as a standard and supernurbs if you really want to make 3d mirrors.

    Option them up equally, most of what are Haas options are standard on the Okuma so by the time you are buying a similar machine you are at a similar price. The prices do vary from year to year and even within the same year but it's not enough of a difference to matter.

    Find someone who owns one that doesn't think it's a good machine...

    There are other dual column premium machines from Mazak and Makino..and they cost 2x what the 560 goes for.

    If you can get a 560 for anywhere near the price of a similar Haas, you'd be a fool not to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    This is close to what I was quoted. They had a 4th of July sale that ends today, but the M560 was 105k base, but 7k on the 4th option, and limited to 32 Tools if I recall. Their probe was pretty over priced as well. The sales guy I talked to struggled to answer a lot of questions that I had as well, and that kind of turned me off.

    I don't feel that Haas is the answer for me. To option one out was as much as an Okuma/Doosan and I'd still feel like I wouldn't be getting as good of a machine, especially in the 6AL-4V.

    I initially talked to Brother because of the positive following that they have here, but I am not sold on the BT30.

    Doosan has been good to talk with. Their DNM5700S checks all of the boxes, but there aren't a lot out there and getting feedback on them has been tough. Anybody running these machines?

    I can give Makino a call, but I doubt they'd have anything in my price range.
    There are couple of guys on here that are running a Doosan DNM5700S. Maybe someone will chime in. I work for Doosan so I may sound a little biased if I speak highly of them. I have run CNC's for about 35 years and have to say at the current time, they are one of the better ones in your price range. And I will leave it at that. I will offer this. If there are any questions you might have about that machine, I will answer them honestly. Bullshitting anybody doesn't do any good because it all comes out in the wash eventually. And nobody makes friends that way. I can send you some pics of a mold core for a camera body I did at IMTS last year.

    Paul Anderson
    Applications Engineer
    Doosan Machine Tools America
    [email protected]
    873-618-2457

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    I'm surprised the brother brigade isn't in here trying to peddle those machines.
    Well, I'll be your huckleberry.

    The Speedio would probably work very well for him - although if he does a significant amount of titanium, I'd choose the M560V any day over a Speedio. The Brother is crazy fast in toolchanging and surfacing, so if that's his primary concern, I'd go with the Speedio. If he needs a 40x20 machine, the S1000X is the only choice. I'd think long and hard about whether to get the 10k high torque spindle or the 16k (I'd go with dual contact on either).

    The Speedio would certainly do everything he needs... but anytime there is a significant amount of more difficult materials to machine, and if outright speed isn't the primary factor, I think nothing out there beats the Okuma right now.

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    We have several 560 machines at the shop where I work and also several S1000's. The 560 is by far the more stout capable machine, but if you are doing small aluminum stuff you can't beat the speed of the Speedio. Both machines are good in their own right, we really never have issues with either. From our experience you can feed faster more accurately with the Okuma. The machine seems to hold contour shapes better. And we went through and had Yamazen help us out with all of the control options to help with that which did make a huge difference, but the Okuma still beats it without playing with the program. I feel I get more machine for my money with the Okuma, and it can do everything the Brother can but not move so quickly. There are things the Brother can't do that the Okuma can however being so much heavier a machine with the 40 taper. I like the Okuma control far better. The Brother control I would say feels outdated by comparison, not nearly as easy to navigate.

    I vote for the 560 if you need to be able to do everything and do it well.

    EDIT: Also, for what it's worth, we have a bunch of guys who were used to HAAS controls and I would say 9/10 eventually grow to prefer the Okuma control from the setup/programming side. Operator is probably more evenly split if the started on a HAAS. I prefer it as well but I started on an Okuma so my opinion is heavily experience biased. I prefer the OSP over FANUC, Brother, Mitsubishi, Siemens, in that order.
    Last edited by 70olds; 07-09-2019 at 11:27 AM. Reason: Forgot to add a point

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