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  1. #41
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    Newer Fanuc, all my Siemens 840d controls, and brothers have an option to set max rpm for a given tool.... A feature that could literally be a life saver...

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  3. #42
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    Yeah, I checked my Siemens 810D's and I don't find any field related to RPM anywhere.
    (I didn't think so)


    -----------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Kudos to the people that shared the event. I tell my team that we have two options. We can learn from others' misfortunes/safety experiences as what not to do or learn it on our own. Lets learn from them so that those events including the unfortunate times that people are hurt can help save another from injury or losing life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dstryr View Post
    Newer Fanuc, all my Siemens 840d controls, and brothers have an option to set max rpm for a given tool.... A feature that could literally be a life saver...
    Fanuc controls as far back as the mid 80s could do that but would have needed to be implemented by the Machine builder via their ladder program.

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  7. #45
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    EVEN IF there was a max speed set, if the control is at fault of dooing sumpthing wonky, what's the odds that it's going to look at the MAX S register in the process?


    ------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    So, lets see if my memory is correct regarding things going wrong...

    2005, just bought my 1st Chevalier VMC (Fanuc 0IMC). It was the very first C machine in the UK, and it actually had 9000 parameters so I'm thinking it was a hybrid - bit of a B control, with a C B&W screen and front end (as the later C machines had no 9000 parameters and were colour screens).
    Anyway, the machine was running a prog which had the wrong pre-select called for next tool.
    So it would start, find next tool, run prog, get to M19 G53 and then wait while it selected the correct tool, tool change, and carry on through the prog.
    After making 20odd parts okay, there was a huge smack and lucky i was on a manual within about 5 feet so i could estop it.
    I'm sure that the machine display page knew it had the wrong tool in the head (ie the display matched the head tool), although where it was in the prog, it should have had the other tool.
    So the machine hadn't corrupted the tool table, it had just toolchanged at the end of cycle without grabbing the correct tool first. After 20 odd parts...
    The fix was a tech who came in and lengthened a timer - he said the threshold was too tight and was just on the limit which is why it worked okay for the 20odd parts.
    For all the years after that i had the machine (upto 2017 when i left the place), I never fully trusted that machine.
    Occasionally it would be running, toolchange and the spindle would run up and the machine would sit there for 2 or 3 seconds, then the head would drop and carry on.
    But it wouldn't do it next tool or next part, it just did it random. But never went wrong again.



    Other time...
    2007 with another Chevalier VMC (0IMC). Running well with no probs and there was a huge bang on a toolchange as the head had gone G53 and overtravelled against its rubber/hard stop.
    Reset, all looked okay, we carried on. Following day it did it again so we got the tech in (machine under warranty) who couldn't find any problem, so we carried on.
    A couple of days later it's running sweet and just as my old chap walked through the door he shouted to me (i was up the other end of the factory) that it sounded like the tool had snapped.
    I looked and stopped the machine and it had.
    The part was missing a lot of detail and where it was in the program was 3 tools later.
    I looked at the spindle tool and it wasn't the right one, but it was the correct tool call and the display matched what it should have been. But the tool in the spindle was wrong.
    I called the previous tool (MDI) and again that was the wrong tool.
    What had happened, was the machine tool table had lost itself for only 3 tools, and lucky the tools that were called were shorter so didn't break/do damage, and the one that snapped was a drill.
    We got Fanuc in to diagnose and the big yellow hold-up capacitor in the main servo module (2inch dia x 6" long?) had gone faulty, so the current wasn't being held. Sometimes.
    New cappy and this one never went wrong again.

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  11. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by machtool View Post
    I think the far greater thing is that G-Coder05 is back. As American as pumpkin pie. Moved to China .M.I.A for years. Turns up and starts this thread.

    Is this making Net news in China?
    Ahh, I'm distancing myself from China. Not even going to renew my resident visa. They absolutely hate foreigners unless they are making them money. Just rude self entitled dumb asses. I got shit canned by a 32 year old kid with an MBA in business that couldn't even indicate a vise for not being able to keep an "80%" spindle utilization in a prototype shop with 40 machines.

    But yes, This did make news in China. And I guarantee they wont learn a thing from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Ahh, I'm distancing myself from China. Not even going to renew my resident visa. They absolutely hate foreigners unless they are making them money. Just rude self entitled dumb asses. I got shit canned by a 32 year old kid with an MBA in business that couldn't even indicate a vise for not being able to keep an "80%" spindle utilization in a prototype shop with 40 machines.

    But yes, This did make news in China. And I guarantee they wont learn a thing from it.
    Speaking as a land-locked gweilo, I'd love some stories about your experiences. Any chance of a travel diary?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I'm not assuming anything, I am going by what the guy said...

    He was running a big ass, hairy, dangerous tool. By his own admission, the mill he was running that tool in had been exhibiting strange behavior. One assumes this includes uncommanded (or non-explicitly commanded) RPM max events.


    And how do you know? WAG? Shweet.


    Put simply? You don't fucking do that. If the machine is exhibiting such behavior, why the hell would you put a dangerous tool like that one into it? Call a service tech out and get your HFO to test and guarantee that that condition isn't happening - because people's fucking lives depend on it!

    Agreed!! But when does anyone listen/follow that advice, really, I mean ...REALLY? You're perfect and never let something slide...


    If the machine was really exhibiting strange behaviors and he knew about it, it was crazy to be running that tool. That's like handing a loaded glock to a monkey.

    Whatever dude. Not everyone is in a 1000 man shop and can let a machine sit idle :just in case:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Speaking as a land-locked gweilo, I'd love some stories about your experiences. Any chance of a travel diary?
    Actually I have been writing a long winded bit about the time I spent working there. It goes into detail about how Chinese throw labor at a problem rather than find a solution. Just to give an idea how many machinist China puts out here is a pic of one of the 8 Machinist polytechnic schools in Zhongshan that graduates 1500+ machinist every year. Once I finish it up I'll put it in the general section.
    Sorry for getting off topic guys.....
    polytec.jpg

  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Once I finish it up I'll put it in the general section.
    Please post it maybe in the Owner's forum too. I steer clear of General as much as possible, and I know I'm not the only one.

  18. #52
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    Gotta remember, most digital controls, it takes but one bit to flip to cause some very strange behavior. Not saying thats the cause in this case, but digital controls of any description are no way near as perfect as lots of people wish they were! Have personaly seen a lot of strange behaviours on a range of stuff over the years, sure some you could fix, some you could give a dusty board a clean letting it run cooler and the gremlins melt away, but every time i see one of thoes you tube videos of people riding a robotic arm like a roller coaster, it kinda sends chills down my spine, becasue even if every thing is proven, it only take a weird once in a billion fault to make em just a bloody streak on the floor!

    What impressed me about that video was how it was not realy describing much of a parabala flight wise despite going through so much, it really must have been haling ass. If it can make it through that many walls, don't think you can doubt that would have been a fatality if it had made human contact.

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    For the most part newish (not talking about cap failures from age) electronics are pretty reliable, assuming stable voltage. It’s the electro-mechanical stuff that causes issues, relays, switches, really any kind of movable part.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post

    What impressed me about that video was how it was not realy describing much of a parabala flight wise despite going through so much, it really must have been haling ass. If it can make it through that many walls, don't think you can doubt that would have been a fatality if it had made human contact.
    If my memory serves me right, 3T3d (Pete) who has a 22krpm Robodrill, had an 1/8th cutter snap running at 18krpm a few years ago.
    And that burst through the sheet metal.
    Not the Perspex, but the sheet metal.
    And 1/8th diameter.
    The energy that is in a milling tool holder or lathe chuck is astronomical, and we all take it for granted...

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  22. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    If my memory serves me right, 3T3d (Pete) who has a 22krpm Robodrill, had an 1/8th cutter snap running at 18krpm a few years ago.
    And that burst through the sheet metal.
    Not the Perspex, but the sheet metal.
    And 1/8th diameter.
    The energy that is in a milling tool holder or lathe chuck is astronomical, and we all take it for granted...
    A shop I work with had a mystery a while back. An HMC was missing a toolholder. Looked all through the machine, all around the machine, no holder to be found. Asking all the operators and setup people, no luck.
    Maint. guy found it. It left the machine, crossed an aisle and cleared a safety gate, entered another HMC and eventually jammed up the chip conveyor. I didn't see pictures, but I think it went through the windows of both machines, not the sheetmetal.

  23. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    If my memory serves me right, 3T3d (Pete) who has a 22krpm Robodrill, had an 1/8th cutter snap running at 18krpm a few years ago.
    And that burst through the sheet metal.
    Not the Perspex, but the sheet metal.
    And 1/8th diameter.
    The energy that is in a milling tool holder or lathe chuck is astronomical, and we all take it for granted...
    Real close....
    24,000 RPM Robo Drill, 1/4" endmill, stickout ONLY about .5" That's only 1570 SFM. Not like a Big fly cutter.
    It broke while cutting. That tiny little stub had enough energy to put a big dent in the sheetmetal behind the control.
    Not the flimsy sheet metal usually surrounding the machine.
    Sounded like a rifle shot. I was about 100 feet away.

    Good memory Barbter.

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  25. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    This just popped up and I cant believe the damage. I know you guys don't normally look at Facebook but this shop just had a counterbalance accident and the damage was devastating. Something came apart and hit the kurt vice, shattering the jaws, throwing the vice into the back of the machine, went through the Haas enclosure, then through a metal wall, then through a metal chair, then into another brick wall and finished of in another metal wall. the velocity of this thing would have had to be enormous.

    its worth the time to watch the video

    Haas CNC Programmers Public Group | Facebook
    Diagnosis ?

    Analysis (maybe) ?

    I think the guy in the video got it right ?

    Back of the envelope physics …


    According to my "Math" such that it is;

    Assumptions ,

    200 mm radius on arm,

    0.3 Kg counter weight. (10 + 1/2 ounces )

    12,000 rpm.


    [I'm metric when it comes to physics and engineering and then convert but nothing different from a British GCSE/ 'O" level physics exam that 15 year olds take.].

    So that projectile would be travelling approx. 250 Meters/ second ---> roughly 560 miles an hour...

    Roughly 3/4 the speed of sound.

    What's interesting is even a 1/3 of a KG mass initially travelling at that angular velocity with a 200 mm radius would have a centripetal force of approximately 94,000 N (Newtons) equivalent to roughly 9000 KG or very roughly 20,000 lbs of (centre seeking) thrust/ force .

    So the bloke in the video stated that the counter weight came apart from the aluminum armature at full spindle speed 12,000 rpm...

    ^^^ That seems credible would 20,000 lbs pull through the bolts and deform that armature ? Looks like it DID. [Initially I was skeptical that the flycutter got up to the full 12,000 rpm but I reckon it probably did for a mo.. ].

    Might need to redo my math but the Kinetic energy of the order of 9 to 10 kilo-joules...

    Equivalent of a small bore Civil war era (mini) cannon ?

    Maybe exiting the first sheet metal enclosure it would still be traveling at 250 miles an hour (at least).

    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________


    Does make you think that sheet metal is definitely not gonna stop that, and I have seen (at a facility) I worked at a bullet go through a hanger wall and lodge into a historic aircraft in a museum (that had survived WWII without a scratch … ) wasn't a very good neighborhood... Seeing that projectile/ counter weight in the video go through two or three walls of sheet metal seems at LEAST commensurate with a large caliber / low velocity fire arm. But the counter weight is maybe 1 inch square so 20,000 lbs of thrust at 560 mile an hour probably would put a very crisp counter weight shaped hole through someone's head and keep going... No way some one could survive that (head and chest area ) unless they got very lucky... A kind of wound that would bleed out very quickly / would be impossible to stop. Even shredded femoral artery (in leg) is a difficult bleed out and not many "peeps" are gonna stick their fingers in that artery to stop massive bleeding (as you are supposed to). )

    Also makes me wonder if that was on HERMLE what a similar projectile travelling 500 miles an hour would do to a granite casting lol. BOOM ! (Probably ricochet then exit sheet metal / glass).

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Nothing to diagnose. Someone with a fat finger put way too many rpms for that kind of tool and Centrifugal force tool over. Lucky no one was killed.

    I am surpised this doesn't happen more often. I am seeing more and more people that never stood in front of a drill press or a bridgeport programming via cad/cam a HAAS with 20 or 30 horsepower. 2000 rpms or 15000 rpms is just a number. Means nothing to them. Stand on front of a bridgeport all day with a hand sharpened 3" fly cutter at 2000 rpms milling aluminum blocks and you learn really quick.

    Does make one wonder whether one day these kinds of machines will be lined with Kevlar. Don't hand out large fly-cutters to kids ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Their customer base thinks "Billet" means "High Quality". Customers=Money. Even I can do that math.

    Exactly. This is a shop that appears to build extremely high end diesel race engines and components. Making "billet" blocks and heads, they are using that fly cutter CORRECTLY to put the needed finish on the blocks and heads for today's MLS head gaskets. They use PCD inserts in those fly cutters, and the tool is sold as "balanced", so yes they run them at higher RPM than you are used to. So once it went past intended RPM, there would have been no time to do anything about it. AND the (assumed) owner of the shop had the GIGANTIC balls to put this on the internet to warn others. I bet none of you would do the same thing. I know I wouldn't.

    You guys assuming you know what happened are no better than the evening news when something big happens. Just make details up until the story matches your pre conceived notions.

    Last thing, the new Haas controls have, in fact, been reported to do some very dangerous things on it's own. It seems they have them under control now, but the NGC control was a very bad deal for some shops in the beginning. We know absolutely nothing about this machine.
    This is very disturbing... Have heard some strange things on the programming / development side of the newer controls couple of years ago that were damning but didn't know if such reports were true or not ? And whether everything has been brought up to a professional standard on software development side ? (specifically for the control …) [Lot of code migration and weird mish mash of code libraries (that are not quite so appropriate for industrial applications). ?]

    I want the HAAS control to be as good as it can be, not trolling, but there were some weird reports that would definitely make you scratch your head … [ i.e. don't cheap out on software development.].

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    I'm curious about the fly cutter. 12000 rpm gets you 12000*2*PI/60 = 1257 radians/sec. To get velocity, multiply by the radius, eg something at a 6" radius would have a velocity of 1257*6"/12"/foot = 628ft/sec. .22 rifles seem to fire at about 1000ft/sec but one could imagine if a hard tool came off at that radius it might have some decent mass and be able to get through a few sheets of metal without going splat like a bullet. The other super impressive thing is how little the projectile seems to have dropped as it hit the chair then made it to the far wall of the other room. One could estimate the velocity knowing how far it dropped if you knew the size of the room. Does anyone know any more about the tool, it's radius or what the cutter or counterweight looked like?

    The damage to the Kurt jaws was equally impressive.


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