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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I want the HAAS control to be as good as it can be, not trolling, but there were some weird reports that would definitely make you scratch your head … [ i.e. don't cheap out on software development.].
    I think it is obvious that the Haas NGC didn't launch with perfection, but it is hard to suss out reliability reports with this particular brand of machine tool. Their ubiquity and affordability makes them the brand of choice for the widest range of shops possible - from serious minded, top of the heap outfits to dudes in their garage with the respirations required to receive Haas financing, and not much more.

    In 95% of machine crashes, the initial (and often final) response is "The machine did it!" When the venn diagram overlap of inexperience and Haas ownership is so high, of course you're going to get a lot of Haas customers who are just dumbfounded that face mill drove itself right into the Kurt vise, or the tool setter got nuked. Those pesky ghosts in the machine, after all. Especially with that newfangled controller!

    It reminds me of Glock back 20 years ago. They got a reputation as being "unsafe" simply by virtue of owning 60% of the market for police handguns, therefor being the primary gun in the vast majority of cop negligent discharges.

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    On Software - just as 'everything is made of rubber' we should all remember 'all software has defects'. Always. There are some deep mathematical and human factors reasons this is such a hard problem. And even orgs we expect to be "perfect" get it wrong (see latest Boeing revelations w.r.t. software for the 737 max airliner.) Could there be some kind of glitch in the controller software? Certainly.

    On Hardware - it can fail - this board is to a large degree discussions about dealing with such failures, how to avoid them, and so forth.

    And of course, hardware failing or just being out of spec will very very often cause software to fail. Even well done software.

    But, just as there *IS* such a thing as a firearm that discharges when dropped (I'll hunt up links if you wish), there *HAVE* been cars where the throttle control loses its mind all by itself (I drove a racecar that did did that once - it was exciting) - in spite of all that - the stunningly large majority of negligent discharges are user caused, the stunningly large majority of car accidents involve inappropriate driving behavoir, and indeed, most crashes in machine tools involve user error.

    So yes, the machine could have glitched, but some sort of setup or operator error is rather more likely.

    Just as in firearms, aviation, and I guess some sensible parts of medicine - where "check and check again and follow safe practices" have become the standard care - often with rules written in blood - structurally safe practices are appropriate in machine shops.

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    I agree with [email protected] not to judge their shop or write them off as incompetent "nincompoops"

    I agree that the honesty of the bloke that made the original video is outstanding.

    I think the way the guy posting the video explained things as to how they happened seems legit.


    I agree with bryan_machine about the "rate" at which various f*ck ups can happen with the complexity of software engineering...

    BUT as someone that is deeply involved in software engineering we can't use the excuse that 737's crash and HAAS's have the potential to kill people 'cuz of bad management/ weak methods of engineering practice (in SW testing and development.).

    If "we" f*ck up in that way we are liable and will be required to fall on our swords and take responsibility.



    Haas Problems

    This post ^^^ by Perry Harrington ^^^ #121 really sticks in my mind on this one.


    Wisdom of the Forum …

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    bryan_machine's point about the 737 is apt as potentially such a fault can lie with bad management and not allocating enough resources / being cheap with the obvious problems in hand and no oversight / proper regulation. In Hardware focused businesses software can be too much of an after thought and resource allocation is not taken seriously or standards of engineering in software are not taken seriously or are largely unknown.


    I am always very safety conscious and usually disasters happen when three things align in combination to go wrong... So I always keep an almost paranoiac eye out for those potential combinations and try to build in procedures to make sure that 3rd level fail safe is there... So I'm grateful / glad that that bloke posted that video as helpful "reminder" to pull focus on safety in more general terms.

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  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    Apparently guy accidentally hit the spindle 100 percent key and it rememebered 12k. A DOH moment insued. Its a big crash...I have seen bigger.
    ^^This. A haas will remember the last rpm if you just push spindle forward.
    So anytime I load a blake or have to have the door open/head inside doing "something" I will MDI M3 S50 cycle start.
    That way if I hit spindle forward while concentrating on something else it will load S50
    This very well could have been what happened. Loaded up that big contraption and was jogging down to touch off and hit spindle forward.
    If the Estop was between your ass cheeks it would have been too late.
    Gary

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    The other thing about that video that sticks in my mind …

    I'm on 3000 sqFt (1000 office and 2000 good wharehouse / technical industrial space / unit.)

    Two units over they had an industrial bread machine boiler / water tank fail and completely flood their unit and the unit next to me, we got mildly soggy around the edges, not too bad...

    Occasionally "Peeps" on the other side may complain about noises of one sort or another from time to time, just 'cuz we are pretty quiet most of the time and the sound proofing between units is terrible.


    But never really twigged to the idea that I had the capability to (inadvertently) kill people in different companies through a sheet rock wall of a set of divided commercial units..? (Sinter block walls running perpendicular to the sheet rock / metal studs divided walls). Good space and good location nice spec but the dividing walls are mostly cosmetic (it seems).

    I know I'm more likely to drive a fork of forklift through a wall than have a really long heavy fly cutter disintegrate at 12000 rpm... But still never considered the safety of my neighbors other than extra fire insurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I'm on 3000 sqFt (1000 office and 2000 good wharehouse / technical industrial space / unit.)
    And all the time, we were thinking you were some sort of Industrial giant. Are there any machines (Specifically CNC) in that 2,000sq/ft????????

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    And it is no fault of Haas. It is a simple operator flub. This time the damage is mechanical

    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle1000 View Post
    ^^This. A haas will remember the last rpm if you just push spindle forward.
    So anytime I load a blake or have to have the door open/head inside doing "something" I will MDI M3 S50 cycle start.
    That way if I hit spindle forward while concentrating on something else it will load S50
    This very well could have been what happened. Loaded up that big contraption and was jogging down to touch off and hit spindle forward.
    If the Estop was between your ass cheeks it would have been too late.
    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Bullshit.

    You have to be pretty stupid to run a giant fly cutter like that in the first place. The handful of circumstances where it would be absolutely necessary are rare as chicken teeth, and clearly above the pay grade of this outfit judging from the looks of things.

    But you would need to be epically stupid to throw such a contraption into a machine that you knew had ghosts that randomly sent the spindle to V max.
    I saw what looked like a few Cummins cylinder heads there. Looks like a head-cutting flycutter to produce super smooth finishes. The one at the builder that did my heads recently looked fairly sketchy as well. Didn't look like a head-cutting setup in the machine but who knows. That's the only time I've seen that kind of tool used, super light cuts with a big cutting diameter. Usually PCD tipped.

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    I wonder why that - over the traditional Thompson grinder?


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    Some engine manufacturers spec a very narrow range of surface roughness that is more rough than a bad grind job and more smooth than a bad mill finish. It seems like most of the industry has settled on a large milling cutter that skims the surface in a single pass.

    However, most of the real head and block milling machines will be set slightly out of tram so the cutter does not drag on the back side of the cut. I suppose you could do that with a Haas, but it would put everything else on a corresponding lean.

    FWIW, when I hear "diesel" and "performance" in the same sentence my spider sense starts to tingle. All I get is images of flat bill hats, sleeve tattoos, patchy beards, "rolling coal", etc. But I'm sure I'm just painting with a broad brush...


    We had a "diesel performance" shop in the industrial complex where my shop is located. The landlord finally threw them out. As far as I could tell it was just a rich farmer's kid burning through daddy's money. They were doing things like taking apart injectors and cutting the ends off the DLC coated intensifier pistons with an abrasive wheel and selling them as +100 hp injectors.

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    Yeah yeah..........Scary it went through the sheet metal and a few steel walls.................what really boggles my mind is it snapped the FREAKIN' HARD JAW in two?!!!??!?!?!!?? WTH????? How does a hard jaw bolted on with 2 1/2 SHCS's snap in half like that? Holy moley.............

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Given the ratty looks of the rest of that outfit
    What kind of shop snob are you?! "ratty looks"? Looks like a busy shop to me.

    I'm not saying your diagnosis is wrong. Or right. But, I am saying you are nobody deserving of the right to judge their shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    How does a hard jaw bolted on with 2 1/2 SHCS's snap in half like that?
    NOT quietly! That is for damn sure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    Yeah yeah..........Scary it went through the sheet metal and a few steel walls.................what really boggles my mind is it snapped the FREAKIN' HARD JAW in two?!!!??!?!?!!?? WTH????? How does a hard jaw bolted on with 2 1/2 SHCS's snap in half like that? Holy moley.............
    I think the counter weight went one way and then the arm and toolholder broke out of the spindle nose and maybe the other half of the arm/ cutter broke the vice ?

    It is pretty "Cray cray ".

    Do they make Kevlar underpants ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    What kind of shop snob are you?! "ratty looks"? Looks like a busy shop to me.

    I'm not saying your diagnosis is wrong. Or right. But, I am saying you are nobody deserving of the right to judge their shop.
    I believe he is the same guy that talks (brags) about programming 100 brothers or something for billion part orders....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I believe he is the same guy that talks (brags) about programming 100 brothers or something for billion part orders....
    (He is no Tonytn36, that is for damn sure) I respect the guys intelligence. He is no dummy. Conceited snob? I'll save the rest of my comment...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Diagnosis?

    Sure!

    Same diagnosis as all the people who claim "The gun just went off!" when they have a negligent discharge... Somebody meant to type M3 S1200 and typed M3 S12000 instead.

    More importantly, running that tool in that machine was a fucking dumb idea. A disaster waiting to happen. Given the ratty looks of the rest of that outfit, I am sure someone thought they were smarter than the average bear when they decided to use that big bastard in a commodity CAT40 machine. It is the kinda thing 50 guys will get away with, but holy shit... the 51st guy is lucky to live.
    Yep.

    I help a shop occasionally that had to do a composite mold that needed a long reach cutter. It is a CNC router with a 32,000 RPM spindle. The programmer his 30,000 rpm rather than 3000 RPM. It was quite a spectacular failure and one I'm glad I didn't witness. It came inches away from killing someone in the shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    FWIW, when I hear "diesel" and "performance" in the same sentence my spider sense starts to tingle. All I get is images of flat bill hats, sleeve tattoos, patchy beards, "rolling coal", etc. But I'm sure I'm just painting with a broad brush...
    In my experience you are right on. Flat billers, Bro Dozers, and the type that thinks it's funny to blow their fucking train horn when passing pedestrians. In general, giant dooshers.

    However, anybody that designs and builds "real" billet heads and blocks that can take 100psi of boost, 6 HP per cubic inch, and live has my respect. Those guys are no dummies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    (He is no Tonytn36, that is for damn sure) I respect the guys intelligence. He is no dummy. Conceited snob? I'll save the rest of my comment...........
    You're goddamn right I am a conceited snob.

    Conceited enough to know that putting a tool like that is a risky endeavor that shouldn't be taken lightly. The reason my panties are in a twist about this chucklehead isn't because of the crash (we've all fucked up), it was his statement that he knew the machine was having problems.

    DO you all not really understand how that elevates this from the kind of mistake any one of us is one brain-fart-fat-finger away from making, to the kind of reckless disregard (or ignorance) that actively kills people?

    It is a ratty shop because instead of purchasing the proper machine for the job, they cheapened out and made a contraption that could quite readily kill someone through malfunction or minor human error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    You're goddamn right I am a conceited snob.

    Conceited enough to know that putting a tool like that is a risky endeavor that shouldn't be taken lightly. The reason my panties are in a twist about this chucklehead isn't because of the crash (we've all fucked up), it was his statement that he knew the machine was having problems.

    DO you all not really understand how that elevates this from the kind of mistake any one of us is one brain-fart-fat-finger away from making, to the kind of reckless disregard (or ignorance) that actively kills people?

    It is a ratty shop because instead of purchasing the proper machine for the job, they cheapened out and made a contraption that could quite readily kill someone through malfunction or minor human error.
    I had previously prepared a comment along the lines of Wheelie's (albeit a little less diplomatic), but

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    ...it was his statement that he knew the machine was having problems.
    this precisely was the reason I declined to post it. I really can't disagree with this.

    Otherwise, I think your judgement is uncalled for.

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