Making the most of limitations of Fanuc based Doosans

About 6 months ago I took over a shop that is all Doosan machines with Fanuc controls. They range from 2005-2007 including mills, lathes, and mill/turn machines. I am struggling with the deadly limitations of the Fanuc controls. 256K program memory and RS232 limited to 19,200bps are perhaps the most dramatic. Each machine has a different variant 18i, 21i, 0i - I can't remember all of them off the top of my head but they are the usual suspects from the era.

The horrifying user experience of Faunc controls can be a separate topic. They are reliable, but indefensibly horrible operationally. The goal of this thread is to figure out how to make the best of the very limited memory and extremely slow RS232. Many of my programs for the mills and the mill/turn are larger than the available 256k. The programs that do fit take an enormous amount of time to load.

Is it possible to get the RS232 to go faster than the 19.2k that I see in the documentation? Loading a 200k program at that speed is brutally slow.

Are there practical options to get 1M or so of program memory (or more)?

For the inevitable DNC, what are your favorite options from a user-friendly perspective? Hopefully, one that makes program restart reasonably easy.

I have considered the Calmotion products, but not tried them. I have also considered putting a full PC at each machine with some DNC software. A full PC can be helpful with display of drawings, setup sheets, and other support information for the operator. Perhaps if we had a well thought out DNC solution that is controlled on a PC at each machine, the memory and RS232 limitations would not be as much of a problem.

The Doosan hardware is really quite good, so I feel like defeating the shortcomings of the controller will extend the life of these machines.

Thanks in advance to all that choose to offer any hints, guidance, or insights.

Those machines should all be new enough to have a PCMCIA data card port. You can buy adapters to SD or USB or whatever.

I believe that starting with the 16 series controls they had an option to communicate via ethernet. You may have to buy some hardware, but it should be possible on all of your machines.

They all indeed have PCMCIA slots and I have used that option. One machine is running DNC from a card now. While it works, it is clumsy. On top of that, the slots and cards where never designed for a lot of cycling. We do very low volume and prototype work so the programs are being changed/updated 20 times per day.

Hoping for a cleaner solution that does not require constant plugging/unplugging cables or cards that are likely to break.... requiring some proprietary Fanuc PCMCIA connector to be replaced.

One machine (PUMA 2000SY) has Ethernet, but from what I can tell it is a bit of a cludge to use practically. I have not really tried it after reading about how it works. It may surprise me.

My previous endeavor was all later generation Haas machines that were all connected directly to the network and had 16MB program memory. The early Haas ethernet implementation was basic, but quite easy to use. The next-gen controller is a dream to work with. Haas, however cannot do what these Doosan's are doing, so I am not trying to compare the hardware.

Typet purly on my fone.

Greetings,

I've got a Doosan VMC of that vintage (2007 DMV 3016 with a Fanuc 0iMB)
They're great machines, and there are a couple of advantages to them.
A) the 'Doosan' badged ones are the last year before FANUC locked down the controllers, so if you can find the param settings to turn everything on, you can turn everything on without the machine phoning home.
B)...well, that's the big one. But....

For large programs, I run off the memory card. (PMCIA slot in the back.) There is a port extender widget that somebody (?on here? ?I think?) put together to remote that slot out to the exterior of the power cabinet, so you can get at it a whole lot easier. I don't have one, but I remember looking them up, and they are available.
You're right, at least on the 0iMB: 256K is as big as they get. I've never managed to get drip feed working on mine. I do it from the card, and that's plenty. The implementation sucketh, but it's not too horrible, once you contort your brain into the proper FANUC form.
(It's under 'tape', and you have to set your com port to 4 in the system setup first. (zero is the RS232))
The other advantage to the FANUCs is the simplicity of the interface. Yeah, it's not pretty, and if you're used to modern GUI systems, it'll seem....stripped down, but it is absolutely bulletproof.
And I can't say enough good things about the build quality of the machine itself.

FWIW,
Brian

PS--> PM me if you need help with figuring out how to get the card working. It's not *hard* but it's not obvious either.

rx8pilot said:

Is it possible to get the RS232 to go faster than the 19.2k that I see in the documentation? Loading a 200k program at that speed is brutally slow.

Click to expand...

This is a funny comment . I load at 9600 on 2-8 meg programs on one of my fadals alot. 200k at 19.2 is like what 10-20 seconds at the most.

rx8pilot said:

Is it possible to get the RS232 to go faster than the 19.2k that I see in the documentation? Loading a 200k program at that speed is brutally slow.

Click to expand...

Hello rx8pilot,
Define brutally slow. At 19.2k baud, it should take around 1.38mins. The transfer speed also depends a lot on the efficiency of the Comms Software being used. Many use delays at the end of each Block and some also after each character to help cope with the deficiencies of the Software and Hardware being used.

Regards,

Bill

Hi. I have operated a Doosan Mynx 750/50 mill with Fanuc 21i for a bit more than a year now. In fact it's practically the only machine I have run in production save a few workdays.

Yes, they're good machines. Strong, sturdy. Horrible ergonomics tho. Leg breaker.

I echo the problem with available memory. My solution tends to be to macro everything I can in order to reduce file size and gradually shorten coding time per new job. It's a work in progress but I have made many inventions. Some worse and some better. I thought I could code when I got the job. Yeah, I could, compared to most. But now, struggling with that evil control system for a year and change... I can really code for hand. Always improving tho. Old code I wrote, I shudder to look at. Should be noted that most jobs are pretty simple and don't need much in way of true 3D.

Any questions, just ask. I don't know how to improve connectivity. I never ran anything off PCMCIA.

Alberic said:

Greetings,

I've got a Doosan VMC of that vintage (2007 DMV 3016 with a Fanuc 0iMB)
They're great machines, and there are a couple of advantages to them.
A) the 'Doosan' badged ones are the last year before FANUC locked down the controllers, so if you can find the param settings to turn everything on, you can turn everything on without the machine phoning home.

Click to expand...

I'm interested. Can you expand on this? What can you turn on?

I happen to work for Doosan as an applications engineer. I agree with the statements about the machines themselves being robust and strong. I also see "some" of the gripes about Fanuc. But the Fanuc controls are the most durable and bulletproof control on the market. I don't say this because I currently work for Doosan. I say it from using Fanucs for close to 40 years. You get used to it and come up with work arounds just like with any other tool you might use.

All that being said, there is an option that Fanuc has that not a lot of people know about. It is an option on Oi-D and earlier and standard on Oi-F and all 30 series controls. It lets you run a PCMCIA card as if it was internal memory. Full search and edit functions and so far I have created partitions on a card up to 2 Gigabytes and actually run and edit programs that were upwards of 60 Megabytes.

Ask Fanuc about the availability on controls earlier than the Oi-D. The option numbers are,
A02B-0319-R642 (Lathe)
A02B-0320-R642 (Mill)

The software that runs on a PC for creating the partitions on the card is option A08B-9010-J700#ZZ11

Both options are no more than a couple hundred dollars total.

This has totally changed my outlook about running programs from a card.

Paul

Delw said:

This is a funny comment . I load at 9600 on 2-8 meg programs on one of my fadals alot. 200k at 19.2 is like what 10-20 seconds at the most.

Click to expand...

By pure math, 19.2k baud should be around 1.7 KB/s or so. This would make a 200k transfer about 114 seconds [round up to about 2 minutes] which is slow but not intolerable. In my shop, the previous guy was running at 9600 [perhaps being concerned about cable length/errors]. I am running at the maximum FANUC limited rate of 19.2k and 200k programs are taking about 8-9 minutes. This indicates some sort of a bottleneck somewhere and so far it appears to be the hardware flow control limiting the transfer rate.

That is not funny at all.....waiting 8 minutes for a transfer is rotten. In the context of a prototype, I end up having to do this quite a few times as the program details settle in. It could be a computer issue or a FANUC issue - not

LockNut said:

I happen to work for Doosan as an applications engineer. I agree with the statements about the machines themselves being robust and strong. I also see "some" of the gripes about Fanuc. But the Fanuc controls are the most durable and bulletproof control on the market. I don't say this because I currently work for Doosan. I say it from using Fanucs for close to 40 years. You get used to it and come up with work arounds just like with any other tool you might use.

All that being said, there is an option that Fanuc has that not a lot of people know about. It is an option on Oi-D and earlier and standard on Oi-F and all 30 series controls. It lets you run a PCMCIA card as if it was internal memory. Full search and edit functions and so far I have created partitions on a card up to 2 Gigabytes and actually run and edit programs that were upwards of 60 Megabytes.

Ask Fanuc about the availability on controls earlier than the Oi-D. The option numbers are,
A02B-0319-R642 (Lathe)
A02B-0320-R642 (Mill)

The software that runs on a PC for creating the partitions on the card is option A08B-9010-J700#ZZ11

Both options are no more than a couple hundred dollars total.

This has totally changed my outlook about running programs from a card.

Paul

Click to expand...

That is good to know, I ran a Doosan DNM 500, and the memory was terrible. I set the PCMCIA card up and ran my programs as a sub through it. I do have one question though, we found that we could not use larger than a 32MB CF card on our machine. It simply would not recognize larger. We tried half a dozen different sizes and two or three different brands. We tried formatting the cards, not formating the cards, after a few phone calls we were told 32MB was the limit.

Is this part of the mentioned option that opens up the parameters to use a larger card?

rx8pilot said:

By pure math, 19.2k baud should be around 1.7 KB/s or so. This would make a 200k transfer about 114 seconds [round up to about 2 minutes] which is slow but not intolerable. In my shop, the previous guy was running at 9600 [perhaps being concerned about cable length/errors]. I am running at the maximum FANUC limited rate of 19.2k and 200k programs are taking about 8-9 minutes. This indicates some sort of a bottleneck somewhere and so far it appears to be the hardware flow control limiting the transfer rate.

That is not funny at all.....waiting 8 minutes for a transfer is rotten. In the context of a prototype, I end up having to do this quite a few times as the program details settle in. It could be a computer issue or a FANUC issue - not

Click to expand...

Have you tried running at the slower speeds? 9600 for example? I have run into one or two limited examples where slower was faster.

Fal Grunt said:

That is good to know, I ran a Doosan DNM 500, and the memory was terrible. I set the PCMCIA card up and ran my programs as a sub through it. I do have one question though, we found that we could not use larger than a 32MB CF card on our machine. It simply would not recognize larger. We tried half a dozen different sizes and two or three different brands. We tried formatting the cards, not formating the cards, after a few phone calls we were told 32MB was the limit.

Is this part of the mentioned option that opens up the parameters to use a larger card?

Click to expand...

Fal,
I have had that issue with card size and formatting it's not funny. So, I did some digging and found out that simply formatting a card will not make it Fanuc compatible. Re-particioning the card is the answer, regardless of card size. I generally use 1GB cards and have used 4GB cards. This has nothing to do with parameters. Fanuc doesn't care what size card you use up to 4GB. I think that is their limit. Private message me with your email and I will send you a tech doc that I wrote on getting a large card to work on a Fanuc. After that, the option I suggested above will work on any card up to 4GB.

As for older controls, ask Fanuc about any control Oi-C and earlier. I know for a fact it works on all 30 series controls going way back.

Paul

Just to be clear - I love the hardware of these machines. Especially after coming from years with only Haas. My only hesitation is the cost of maintenance, but that comes with the territory of high performance.

Additionally, the reliability and brute strength of FANUC is certainly not in question. FANUC deserves accolades in that regard.

Back to communications though....

Ask Fanuc about the availability on controls earlier than the Oi-D. The option numbers are,
A02B-0319-R642 (Lathe)
A02B-0320-R642 (Mill)

The software that runs on a PC for creating the partitions on the card is option A08B-9010-J700#ZZ11

Both options are no more than a couple hundred dollars total.

This has totally changed my outlook about running programs from a card.

Click to expand...

This is sounding good....checking that out.

I wouldn't worry about the robustness of the PCMCIA. You use an adaptor that can stay in the slot on the machine, and you slip in and out the card, so if anything gets damaged, it's the card or the adaptor.
Various other options from people like these USB to CNC - Calmotion

Click to expand...

That is fair...if I can convince myself that the people in the shop will handle the cards with some respect, it may not be much to worry about.
The Calmotion Ethernet to CNC seems like the best solution I have seen so far. A bit pricey up front, but not crazy.

They are setup to allow any programmer to send any program directly to a Calmotion box at Ethernet speeds. The operator can then either load it in program memory or run as DNC with the ability to do mid-program restart. No clumsy card swapping.

barbter said:

Hi Paul,
Is that the same as the link I shared?
I thought it only worked on the newer controls, or are there two software versions - old control and new control?
Thanks

Click to expand...

Barbter,
This part is the option I spoke of. (The memory card editing/operation tool allows part program to be transferred to the memory card.). the other stuff in there is related to memory upgrade on newer controls (Oi-D and up and all 30 series) 4MB on the OI's and 8MB on the 30 series. The rest is related the data server, which is a much more preferable option if you can get past the price tag. Which brings up another point. If someone is going to spend 100K or much more on a machine and skimp on memory or a data server, that does not make any sense to me. And I am a huge opponent to Fanuc for these kind of policies and have no problem telling them when they are in our facility asking us what would make our customers lives easier. I get a blamk stare and they change the subject.

Paul

Fal Grunt said:

Have you tried running at the slower speeds? 9600 for example? I have run into one or two limited examples where slower was faster.

Click to expand...

Yes - indeed.
All the machines have been set to 9600 for years. It was just yesterday that I switched one of them to 19.2k as a test. The math made sense - the 9600 setting took twice the time as the 19200.

My next step is to bring in my logic analyzer and oscilloscope to look at the fine details at an electrical and protocol level. I am curious if the machine is sending hardware flow control stops, maybe resending frames on errors. Not sure. Yesterday, I set up a PC with a 'proper' RS232 port, not the FTDI USB cable. Curious if that will change anything. Waiting on a cable to test it, so that may take a couple of days.

Granted I have a newer Doosan, I still only have 512K of memory. I use one of these adapters:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009M069Y/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_8?smid=A1PW9837098U4T&psc=1

These usually stay in the slot and I use a 4GB compact flash card to transfer files that are larger than the internal memory.

I have machines with Oi-MC and Oi-Mate MB and TB. All of them will read a 4GB CF card. It was not necessary to re-partition the cards, only to reformat for FAT (not FAT32). I used Win XP disk manager to format, accepted the default cluster size and ignored the warning about newer versions of Windows may not read the card.

Any card larger than 4GB will have to be partitioned down to 4GB, since that is the max partition size for FAT16.

guest said:

I have machines with Oi-MC and Oi-Mate MB and TB. All of them will read a 4GB CF card. It was not necessary to re-partition the cards, only to reformat for FAT (not FAT32). I used Win XP disk manager to format, accepted the default cluster size and ignored the warning about newer versions of Windows may not read the card.

Any card larger than 4GB will have to be partitioned down to 4GB, since that is the max partition size for FAT16.

Click to expand...

This is usually true but it depends on the source of the card. Buying off brands and you take a chance. It depends on how they are mass formatted before packaging. PC's might like it but Fanuc has issues with seemingly small things like that.

Paul

It is indeed frustrating waiting for data to transfer. On the 19.2 vs 9.6... Only if you are getting a lot of errors and having to retransmit will 9600 be faster. From the standpoint of simplicity the ethernet cnc option looks good to me. How does it pencil out for ROI? However sometimes it is just worth it to avoid the frustration. It would be nice if there were a solution that you didn't have to do for each machine but I'm not knowledgeable enough to have any idea about what is available. I have a slow internet (10baseT) to my machines and the transfer rate certainly beats sneakernet. Still CF's are not a bad idea. I used 3.5" floppies until I got cable strung from my workstation to the shop. Hang in there.

I understand that the OP was not involved in the purchase decision of the machines he is using. Every complaint he has is a result of someone not choosing to buy the control options appropriate for the machines intended usage.

The machine builder typically specs a pretty minimal control as standard. Partly because it helps keep their price low and partly because some users only need a minimal control. Why buy a meg of memory and ethernet when the machine will rarely change fairly small programs in a high volume manufacturing environment?

It could be argued that the machine sales rep has some responsibility in this as well as the buyer. A good sales guy will try to try to ensure that options are ordered that will provide best usability for the customer's needs. Most don't because they fear losing the sale on price.