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  1. #21
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    We do not cut molds but we need the controls and accuracy of mold machine. Most of our item are 1 to 50 prototypes with complex surfacing and short deadlines.

    7075alum.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by studiotool View Post
    We do not cut molds but we need the controls and accuracy of mold machine. Most of our item are 1 to 50 prototypes with complex surfacing and short deadlines.

    7075alum.jpg
    Just to appease my curiosity...What is that???

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    How do you machine that on a 3 axis machine?

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    That is a tequila bottle cap. about 2.25" in dia. smallest tool was .020"

    Its cut on a 4th axis then rotated up 90 deg. without removing it from the chuck. Were looking at 5 axis for these type of jobs but I need to replace some aging 3 axis machines first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by studiotool View Post
    That is a tequila bottle cap. about 2.25" in dia. smallest tool was .020"

    Its cut on a 4th axis then rotated up 90 deg. without removing it from the chuck. Were looking at 5 axis for these type of jobs but I need to replace some aging 3 axis machines first.
    I would think wasting 20 min in cycle time would be worth not having to cycle the part around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by studiotool View Post
    The Okuma uses software to predict thermal growth.
    It's a little more involved than just software. Ballscrews aren't the only part of the machine subject to thermal growth. The machine is designed to eliminate as much thermal growth as possible. Not all thermal growth can be eliminated so the machine is designed to grow in a way that is easy to compensate for.

    CNC Machines | CNC Control | Okuma?s TFC Compensates for Temp Changes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDQU9k3PGiU

    I watched a great demo on Okuma's thermo friendly concept at Okuma Japan. Too bad I can't find a video of the actual demonstration. Basically the machine was running for half the day. Before lunch we saw it cut half of a block. They shut the machine down and we went to lunch. Lunch was over an hour for us all to board the busses and travel back and forth. After lunch the other half of the block was cut with no warm up. There was no perceivable steps in the block. That was on an Okuma Genos M460 mill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Auto View Post
    MB56 or Genos 560? We have both, the Genos is just as good as the made in Japan 56
    While I have not seen where the Genos is made, I would not so quickly equate the two machines without looking into what kind of work is being done. The devil is in the details.

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    Default Makino F5 or Okuma MB 56 VA

    The Genos and MB are essentially the same machine, the MB just has more available options such as spindles. The Genos mills are also made in Japan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    While I have not seen where the Genos is made, I would not so quickly equate the two machines without looking into what kind of work is being done. The devil is in the details.
    My understanding is that the MB56 and Genos M560 are "basically" the same machine, but the Genos is a fixed configuration and built to stock where the MB is fully customizable and built to order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by merrend View Post
    My understanding is that the MB56 and Genos M560 are "basically" the same machine, but the Genos is a fixed configuration and built to stock where the MB is fully customizable and built to order.
    It has been years since I was walking the floor at the Kani MB factory. The options are important but I doubt that is all that is driving the cost difference. The Genos brand name was originally part of rebranding the ES machines from Tatung and somehow to replace the Beijing L370 product. My understanding is the Genos mill product is somehow more of a world machine even if final assembly is Kani. I don't know for sure. The Japanese are pretty loose on what is considered a product of Japan.

    CNC Lathe for Sale, CNC Lathe Operator, Our Products ::: TATUNG-OKUMA Cnc Lathe

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    It has been years since I was walking the floor at the Kani MB factory. The options are important but I doubt that is all that is driving the cost difference. The Genos brand name was originally part of rebranding the ES machines from Tatung and somehow to replace the Beijing L370 product. My understanding is the Genos mill product is somehow more of a world machine even if final assembly is Kani. I don't know for sure. The Japanese are pretty loose on what is considered a product of Japan.

    CNC Lathe for Sale, CNC Lathe Operator, Our Products ::: TATUNG-OKUMA Cnc Lathe
    If I was looking at the two Okuma products, some simple questions. Where are the castings produced. Where are they machined? Ballscrews? Are they the same? As in interchangeable part numbers. Same with the spindle. Are the parts interchangeable and if not why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    If I was looking at the two Okuma products, some simple questions. Where are the castings produced. Where are they machined? Ballscrews? Are they the same? As in interchangeable part numbers. Same with the spindle. Are the parts interchangeable and if not why.
    Here are some pics from IMTS 2014 of the Genos M560V without sheetmetal.

    Genos M560V Photos by eww_enterprise | Photobucket

    Genos lathes are made by Tatung Okuma in Taiwan, just like the Heritage lathes. They are essentially the same machine with an OSP 200L control and new sheetmetal.

    The Genos mills took the place of the MCV mills that were made in the Czech Republic. They are made in Japan.

    The Captain lathes were made in China with final assembly in the USA. At least that's what it says on the tag on my Captain. They stopped importing them because there was too much overlap in the product lineup. The LB lathes were only slightly more than the Captains and had more available options, plus they are a Japanese lathe. I've also heard China had a lot of demand for lathes so the Captains stayed there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    Here are some pics from IMTS 2014 of the Genos M560V without sheetmetal.

    Genos M560V Photos by eww_enterprise | Photobucket

    Genos lathes are made by Tatung Okuma in Taiwan, just like the Heritage lathes. They are essentially the same machine with an OSP 200L control and new sheetmetal.

    The Genos mills took the place of the MCV mills that were made in the Czech Republic. They are made in Japan.

    The Captain lathes were made in China with final assembly in the USA. At least that's what it says on the tag on my Captain. They stopped importing them because there was too much overlap in the product lineup. The LB lathes were only slightly more than the Captains and had more available options, plus they are a Japanese lathe. I've also heard China had a lot of demand for lathes so the Captains stayed there.
    The Made in Japan part is a bit trickier than you would think. I know of machines that were sent to Japan and legally branded Made in Japan with everything but final sign off done in Taiwan.

    Like I said, I would ask some simple questions to define the actual differences. The MB was a technology superior machine 8-10 years ago. The limitations were mostly in 4th axis feed rates and other minor things. Very nice iron.

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    According to the dealer: the Genos mills are exactly the same as the MB. Except for the casting, which is imported from Taiwan.

    What's hard for me to justify is 50k up charge to get a 20k spindle on virtually the same machine as a genos. The Makino f5 quote is looking better every day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by studiotool View Post
    We do not cut molds but we need the controls and accuracy of mold machine. Most of our item are 1 to 50 prototypes with complex surfacing and short deadlines.

    Attachment 125682



    Quote Originally Posted by studiotool View Post

    What's hard for me to justify is 50k up charge to get a 20k spindle on virtually the same machine as a genos. The Makino f5 quote is looking better every day.
    I know you are looking at a "mold machine" but I can't see that part really needing one. I also would not limit yourself to 20K on the spindle. You are not roughing a giant P20 mold core so you don't need the HP and stiffness of a HSK63 or 40 taper spindle. You can probably squeeze two 24K RPM drill tap machines into your budget (at least one with a 5-axis Koma Rotary table) or go looking for something with a HSK40 spindle which will get you 42K RPM. You are cutting aluminum with tiny tools so you can use every bit of spindle speed you purchase.

    On a side note I've also never had a great finishes out of turbine spindles for 3D surfacing (that includes 30K NSK/Koma and 60K Air Turbine brands) . They'll do it in a pinch but the spindle bearings in them are just not that stiff and they don't have much power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKassoc View Post
    I know you are looking at a "mold machine" but I can't see that part really needing one. I also would not limit yourself to 20K on the spindle. You are not roughing a giant P20 mold core so you don't need the HP and stiffness of a HSK63 or 40 taper spindle. You can probably squeeze two 24K RPM drill tap machines into your budget (at least one with a 5-axis Koma Rotary table) or go looking for something with a HSK40 spindle which will get you 42K RPM. You are cutting aluminum with tiny tools so you can use every bit of spindle speed you purchase.

    On a side note I've also never had a great finishes out of turbine spindles for 3D surfacing (that includes 30K NSK/Koma and 60K Air Turbine brands) . They'll do it in a pinch but the spindle bearings in them are just not that stiff and they don't have much power.
    That cap was just an example of the level of detail in some of our parts. A drill tap would be more than capable for that part but we only made 10 to those and the next job was 10 times it size. We need to be able to put a 15" long part in a 4th axis with a tailstock. That limits us to approximately 35" X axis bed. We also need the Z travel that drill tap don't have (5/8+ x 6" cutters).

    We use datrons for the small parts, but we need the same level of accuracy and speed on a much larger scale.

    We have Haas and Hurco currently, the Haas can not keep up with the feeds and Hurco is not giving us the surface finish I'm happy with. The Hurco is a great machine, 30% faster than our new VM3 haas but I'm seeing noticeable growth in Z after 2 hours of surfacing.

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    If you are looking for the ultimate 3D surfacing machining center, why limit your choices to Makino or Okuma?

    There are other high-end machines out there: Matsuura, OKK, Mitsui Seiki, Roku Roku, Kitamura, Mori Seiki, DMG, ....

    My 2 cents,

    ToolCat

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    The Ultimate in speed and 3D surfacing is a Mikron HSM machine. Something like a HSM 400 or 500, ultra-fast linear motor machine, 42K spindle.

    HSM 500 - Wire EDM | Wire Cut EDM | die sinker edm | milling | laser texturing | GF Machining Solutions

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f90HuNF_PLE


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    Quote Originally Posted by studiotool View Post
    That cap was just an example of the level of detail in some of our parts. A drill tap would be more than capable for that part but we only made 10 to those and the next job was 10 times it size. We need to be able to put a 15" long part in a 4th axis with a tailstock. That limits us to approximately 35" X axis bed. We also need the Z travel that drill tap don't have (5/8+ x 6" cutters).

    We use datrons for the small parts, but we need the same level of accuracy and speed on a much larger scale.

    We have Haas and Hurco currently, the Haas can not keep up with the feeds and Hurco is not giving us the surface finish I'm happy with. The Hurco is a great machine, 30% faster than our new VM3 haas but I'm seeing noticeable growth in Z after 2 hours of surfacing.
    Look at the federate for the rotary. This used to be a big limiting factor for the old P100 Okuma controls. You should be able to machine at 100RPM with any new direct drive table.

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    Look at this part. I would be afraid of the air bending the little pokers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvGUnERekhk

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