Makino F5 vs Okuma Genos M560 for mold works

Floyd29 · Mar 13, 2018

Hi,

We have been in process of selecting our Vertical milling machines (3 Axis) since last several months but finally it has come down to two machines that we had never considered at the first place because of budget issues. However, considering long term benefits we have decided to increase our bugdet.

We are into injection & compression mold making & use material such as P20, D2, 420 Stainless Steel. The hardness of these alloy steels ranges between 25HRC to 55 HRC. Our products are usually complex in shape.

We now have to select between Okuma Genos M560 OR Makino F5

Okuma Genos M560 Specs-

15K RPM
BBT 40 Spindle
OKUMA P300 with Super nurbs controller.

Makino F5 -
12K RPM, BT40 Spindle.
Fanuc 31i or Professional 5 makino controller.

Makino is not recommending 20K RPM as we have to do roughing & finishing on same machine for our Steel molds. So 12K is the highest option as far RPM is concerned with F5

Makino has good presence in our region but Okuma doesn't have any installation within 500 KM distance. We are finding Okuma machine to be more equipped, technically but their service & support is clearly not as good as Makino.

Please give your opinion for what will be a better choice.

Mtndew · Mar 13, 2018

Normally I would say Okuma, but in your case since the Makino service is close to you I would go with them.
They are both great machines.

5 axis Fidia guy · Mar 13, 2018

I have said this before on other posts and will say it again. 12k is no where near enough rpm's for moldmaking. Unless of course you do a ton of edm work on the smaller detail.

XD341 · Mar 13, 2018

I'd opt for the highest rpm I could get. The okuma 15K 22Kw spindle will rough all day and it will run flat out at 15K for days with no issue. I believe it's 20K hour life is actually calculated to be 20K hours @ 15K rpm. It is a ceramaic bearing spindle.

15K might not be enough for fine detail work, maybe in steels...I'm a tool and die guy not mold

SteveEx30 · Mar 13, 2018

5 axis Fidia guy said:
I have said this before on other posts and will say it again. 12k is no where near enough rpm's for moldmaking. Unless of course you do a ton of edm work on the smaller detail.

Bullshit. I run 1mm cutters all day on my S56, only has 12k. To be honest the older S56 are way better machines than the newer F series, I run em both. The F are delicate to say the least.

HSM_CHIEF · Mar 13, 2018

SteveEx30 said:
Bullshit. I run 1mm cutters all day on my S56, only has 12k. To be honest the older S56 are way better machines than the newer F series, I run em both. The F are delicate to say the least.

What material are you cutting with that 1mm end mill at 12k rpm? I’ve also cut down to 1mm on my haas with a 12 spindle in hardned s7 but Lets be real it’s slow and inefficient compared to a competitor who has a 30k spindle... unless I was doing huge molds and all my tools were 3mm or bigger I would really look into getting at least a 20k spindle. That’s just my 2 cents...

Rigor · Mar 13, 2018

SteveEx30 said:
Bullshit. I run 1mm cutters all day on my S56, only has 12k. To be honest the older S56 are way better machines than the newer F series, I run em both. The F are delicate to say the least.

I agree.
If you need more speed, lets say 40k rpm, get a speeder . Otherwise its just a little( actually a lot ) more patience.

litlerob1 · Mar 13, 2018

Seems something suspect about "not" recommending 20k because you Rough and Finish. You obviously don't need to run 20k all the time. I understand that high RPM spindles are a little more temperamental, but just seems weird. It isn;t like you are going to throw in a 1.5" HSS Corn-cob to Rough the Mould work.

I'm with Mtndew though, I would always recommend Okuma over......well anything really, but in that situation, I would go with Service as my priority. It seems like a lot of guys in India are on here asking about stuff that should be an authorized service tech. question(s).

And even with 20k and 1mm tool you're only doing what 200 SFM? 12k=125 SFM

R

SteveEx30 · Mar 13, 2018

Mtndew said:
Normally I would say Okuma, but in your case since the Makino service is close to you I would go with them.
They are both great machines.

Exactly what I would say.

Get the pro5 if you end up with the Makino.

White Lightning · Mar 13, 2018

I currently run both the f5 and the okuma. The f5 has the 20k spindle. I love the pro 5 control and the hsk spindle for finishing and light roughing but the okuma is far surpeior in roughing with the big plus holders. Amazingly rigid. I prefer a fanuc style control as the pro 5 control runs fanuc in the background. I also have been running the s56 makino for years with the 12k spindle. I wouldn't buy a 40 taper machine with out the big plus spindle . Add a 1000 psi thru the spindle coolant for drilling and the chip conveyor to the okuma if you plan on doing bases and roughing and you will have a great machine for molds. The f5 is awesome for finishing but i would only buy one after the okuma for needed spindle time and precise hard milling. I feel the f5 is more accurate but the okuma will have no problems. I hope that helps.

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White Lightning · Mar 13, 2018

One more thing we don't have a chip conveyor on the f5 and that's a major problem. Thought I'd better share.

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5 axis Fidia guy · Mar 14, 2018

SteveEx30 said:
Bullshit. I run 1mm cutters all day on my S56, only has 12k. To be honest the older S56 are way better machines than the newer F series, I run em both. The F are delicate to say the least.

LOL, yes at like 125 sfpm, sure you can do it, not if you want to make any money doing it. A 1mm ball even in hard S-7 should be running around 40k to be very effective. I run a 25k spindle and it's not enough. And the thing still "roughs" quite well.

Jashley73 · Mar 14, 2018

RE: "Roughing" with a 20K spindle... I get it - I'd be suspicious of throwing a 2-3" high-feed mill, on a high-speed spindle with ceramic bearings and really hogging away.

For roughing cavities, I can't imagine a more efficient way than using a high-feed mill, and those aren't the most gentle tools on a machine. Lots of Z-axis thrust, and still has vibration.

Do you mold guys not ever use speeders? Some of the gear-driven speeders are 4:1, and Nakanishi has some electric units that are 90k... --- If you're after RPM's for small-diameter finishing tools, why not go that route?

I'm asking seriously - I figure you "mold" guys have a lot more experience, and better reasoning/understanding...

5 axis Fidia guy · Mar 14, 2018

I do not use speeders, however there are some real nice air driven ones that do toolchanges and are quite compact. I have 96 tools set up in the machine and over half of them are 4mm and under so I would really need a bunch of them. "Roughing" is a pretty vague term for moldmakers. All the work I do is roughed pre-heat treat on other machines, when I get it it's ready for finishing. I hit the hard block with a Kyrocera high feed mill, (my biggest is 25mm) and the 25k spindle handles that with no problem. There is usually .03 stock left for me. I still say minimum 20k spindle. That will handle high feed tools no problem.

White Lightning · Mar 14, 2018

5 axis Fidia guy said:
I do not use speeders, however there are some real nice air driven ones that do toolchanges and are quite compact. I have 96 tools set up in the machine and over half of them are 4mm and under so I would really need a bunch of them. "Roughing" is a pretty vague term for moldmakers. All the work I do is roughed pre-heat treat on other machines, when I get it it's ready for finishing. I hit the hard block with a Kyrocera high feed mill, (my biggest is 25mm) and the 25k spindle handles that with no problem. There is usually .03 stock left for me. I still say minimum 20k spindle. That will handle high feed tools no problem.

It appears floyd29 is looking for a machine that can handle all aspects of mold making. From actual "roughing" blocks pre heat treat, bases, and finish milling blocks. The okuma is the machine with the big plus spindle for the job. Obviously you specialize in pre finishing and finishing. That's awesome for the machines you are talking about but I would hate to tackle a 1300 lb piece of 420 that just came from the steel company saw cut pre heat treat. I run a f5 with a 20k spindle. 500 dia drill max . And for "roughing" it would be real tough to even come close to the slower high torque spindles. We have 5 machines with 30 k and one with 40k. Definitely the go-to for finishing but without the 4 okumas and 2 makinos getting the blocks to the pre finish state they would sit looking for work.

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litlerob1 · Mar 14, 2018

White Lightning said:
It appears floyd29 is looking for a machine that can handle all aspects of mold making. From actual "roughing" blocks pre heat treat, bases, and finish milling blocks. The okuma is the machine with the big plus spindle for the job. Obviously you specialize in pre finishing and finishing. That's awesome for the machines you are talking about but I would hate to tackle a 1300 lb piece of 420 that just came from the steel company saw cut pre heat treat. I run a f5 with a 20k spindle. 500 dia drill max . And for "roughing" it would be real tough to even come close to the slower high torque spindles. We have 5 machines with 30 k and one with 40k. Definitely the go-to for finishing but without the 4 okumas and 2 makinos getting the blocks to the pre finish state they would sit looking for work.

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This is a good point, albeit it just depends on the personal preference for Roughing. A lot of people here will scream about Trochoidal Toolpaths and HSM with small Tools, and how much better it is than Bigger Tools higher Torque. There are a Million Threads about it. But ultimately it's just a preference. I guess the OP needs to determine what his/her preference is when Roughing.

Whit lightning--I do not trust people from the Aland Islands, bad history, especially if you chase Mice. Your location is under your username.

R

White Lightning · Mar 14, 2018

My location is in the great state of Idaho. I've been building molds for over thirty years starting with programming with custom macros before software was even thought of. I believe in keeping up with technology and have utilized those high speed toolpaths for years. At first we used 6 k spindles and got the job done. Now with new machines and new cutter technology lead times have been cut drastically. I'm not sure how long you have been in the trade but it takes a lot more than high speed spindles to get the job done. I'm sorry if I don't come off as the trustworthy type to you. I was just sharing my opinion because I am currently using both of the machines in question. I agree for finishing you can't beat a million dollar 5 axis machine with a 30k spindle but there's a lot more than that to building molds from start to finish. If you want some day maybe you can show me all you know about machining I'm sure I would be awed. Until then watch out for the cat and stay out of traps my mice friend

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litlerob1 · Mar 15, 2018

White Lightning said:
My location is in the great state of Idaho. I've been building molds for over thirty years starting with programming with custom macros before software was even thought of. I believe in keeping up with technology and have utilized those high speed toolpaths for years. At first we used 6 k spindles and got the job done. Now with new machines and new cutter technology lead times have been cut drastically. I'm not sure how long you have been in the trade but it takes a lot more than high speed spindles to get the job done. I'm sorry if I don't come off as the trustworthy type to you. I was just sharing my opinion because I am currently using both of the machines in question. I agree for finishing you can't beat a million dollar 5 axis machine with a 30k spindle but there's a lot more than that to building molds from start to finish. If you want some day maybe you can show me all you know about machining I'm sure I would be awed. Until then watch out for the cat and stay out of traps my mice friend

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WOW! take it easy noob, no one wants to steal your Potatoes. BUT your location says "Aland Islands", I didn't just make it up. I think it is a default because you signed up using your phone.

I can break your balls because I'm from Driggs.

R

Few are.

5 axis Fidia guy · Mar 15, 2018

White Lightning said:
It appears floyd29 is looking for a machine that can handle all aspects of mold making. From actual "roughing" blocks pre heat treat, bases, and finish milling blocks. The okuma is the machine with the big plus spindle for the job. Obviously you specialize in pre finishing and finishing. That's awesome for the machines you are talking about but I would hate to tackle a 1300 lb piece of 420 that just came from the steel company saw cut pre heat treat. I run a f5 with a 20k spindle. 500 dia drill max . And for "roughing" it would be real tough to even come close to the slower high torque spindles. We have 5 machines with 30 k and one with 40k. Definitely the go-to for finishing but without the 4 okumas and 2 makinos getting the blocks to the pre finish state they would sit looking for work.

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I totally agree with you here with your points. BUT, any money he saves with the higher torque spindle for roughing, he will lose 10x over when he starts finishing and is creeping along painfully slow with that 1mm ball endmill at 15 inches a minute with a 12k spindle. After all, there is usually much more finishing work in moldmaking than roughing, I did say usually.

Motorsports-X · Mar 18, 2018

I build molds. MY money wouldnt be spent on anything with lass than 18k rpm if i needed it for finish work. For just base work and pocketing, id be ok with a 12k.

If I'm trying to hard mill with a .040 end mill' its got to have 60k. My opinion is the best way to acheive this is with an electric spindle from nsk

. I would buy neither machine. Id get a hurco bx40i. Dual column, ultimotion, good floor space. Solid machine for alot less money. (I quoted the f5 and the hurco about 6 months ago)

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