Makino S33 Please Help!!!
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    Default Makino S33 Please Help!!!

    I'm newer to machining and have a few older machines like a Hurco and Matsuura. Anytime I've had a question about something on any of these machines the support line at the companies has been awesome and got me right through my problems. I recently worked my way up (I thought) to a 2005 Makino S33 that I bought from a company going out of business and it definitely ran when I purchased it. I've had it for about a month now and I have got everything hooked up correctly and all of the fluids filled, everything powers up and I can jog XYZ by holding the over travel button in but I get a alarm code LS28 for limit switch 28 and it wont allow me to start the spindle. I called Makino just like I have done in the past with the other companies of machines I own and they told me that they know what it is and that LS28 is now referred to as LS905 but if I want them to tell me where the limit switch is I have to pay them $2500 for yearly phone support. This is insane to me!! I've also searched my manuals and can't find LS28 or LS905. I will include pictures of my conversation with Makino and of the alarm code, any help will be greatly appreciated!!! THIS WILL BE THE LAST MAKINO I EVER OWN!! Thanks again everyone for the help and hopefully I can get this machine going with your help.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mk1.jpg   mk2.jpg   mk3.jpg  

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    Its been a while since using the older makino control, but go into the maintenence screen, and see if you can release the limit switch fault.
    They do have a pretty decent front end.

    Should say in the maintenence screen what ls28 is, I dont believe it to be a limit switch. I think it refers to an address in the logic ladder.

    Im kind of shocked they wouldnt help you over the phone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrsthe1 View Post
    I'm newer to machining and have a few older machines like a Hurco and Matsuura. Anytime I've had a question about something on any of these machines the support line at the companies has been awesome and got me right through my problems. I recently worked my way up (I thought) to a 2005 Makino S33 that I bought from a company going out of business and it definitely ran when I purchased it. I've had it for about a month now and I have got everything hooked up correctly and all of the fluids filled, everything powers up and I can jog XYZ by holding the over travel button in but I get a alarm code LS28 for limit switch 28 and it wont allow me to start the spindle. I called Makino just like I have done in the past with the other companies of machines I own and they told me that they know what it is and that LS28 is now referred to as LS905 but if I want them to tell me where the limit switch is I have to pay them $2500 for yearly phone support. This is insane to me!! I've also searched my manuals and can't find LS28 or LS905. I will include pictures of my conversation with Makino and of the alarm code, any help will be greatly appreciated!!! THIS WILL BE THE LAST MAKINO I EVER OWN!! Thanks again everyone for the help and hopefully I can get this machine going with your help.
    I can't find the LS28 or LS905 either at least for manuals I can access.

    I understand your frustration, but on the other hand if buying Makino 2nd hand equipment (thereby saving hundreds of thousands of dollars new) - (for me) putting down $2500 for tech support to ask every dumb question needed to get a machine properly up and running doesn't seem so bad to me.

    [I've paid many years $2500 annual maintenance on software licenses for just CAD (Like Solidworks) and never had to ask a technical question (for years and years) from the "mandatory" support. The one time I did eventually conjure up a question they couldn't answer it and two years later they ran a workshop based around the question I posed in terms of "Best practice".

    So 20 tech support Makino technicians (accessible via phone and email etc.) that can answer real questions and supply diagrams etc. for a year. That doesn't seem terrible if they are any good ?

    You pay more than that to have a machine inspected and ball barred or properly commissioned and ball barred.

    @bigrsthe1 Sorry you are having a bad time I do get where you are comming from on this.

    Oddly about the point you make is that a LOT of machines that you never normally see on the second hand market are appearing. Businesses pre-emptively getting rid of certain liabilities where they may have been financed to the max or over financed on certain machines. I.e. not necessarily going under but getting the jump on those more risky machines.

    Consequently a potential glut of good machines on the second hand market means that Machine Tool Builders in a tough financial climate might not sell so many new machines. A company like Makino (Japan) might be minded to keep staff on rather than lay people off. The USA might be different.

    If that $2500 keeps good support staff employed maybe that's not such a bad thing, it's a two way street I think - And good in terms of legacy machines... Not sure you could get the same through for example DMG Mori ?

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    Start pulling covers and check switches. The one thing I remember about Makinos is things are usually labelled really well. Might be your only choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveEx30 View Post
    Start pulling covers and check switches. The one thing I remember about Makinos is things are usually labelled really well. Might be your only choice.
    Thanks I've been going through all the switches for about a month now and can find anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macds View Post
    Its been a while since using the older makino control, but go into the maintenence screen, and see if you can release the limit switch fault.
    They do have a pretty decent front end.

    Should say in the maintenence screen what ls28 is, I dont believe it to be a limit switch. I think it refers to an address in the logic ladder.

    Im kind of shocked they wouldnt help you over the phone.
    It is crazy they wouldn't answer over the phone or in the email back to me. I mean it took them longer to reply with that long email they sent than it would've to just say, hey ls28 is this. The maintenance screen doesn't say what it is unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I can't find the LS28 or LS905 either at least for manuals I can access.

    I understand your frustration, but on the other hand if buying Makino 2nd hand equipment (thereby saving hundreds of thousands of dollars new) - (for me) putting down $2500 for tech support to ask every dumb question needed to get a machine properly up and running doesn't seem so bad to me.

    [I've paid many years $2500 annual maintenance on software licenses for just CAD (Like Solidworks) and never had to ask a technical question (for years and years) from the "mandatory" support. The one time I did eventually conjure up a question they couldn't answer it and two years later they ran a workshop based around the question I posed in terms of "Best practice".

    So 20 tech support Makino technicians (accessible via phone and email etc.) that can answer real questions and supply diagrams etc. for a year. That doesn't seem terrible if they are any good ?

    You pay more than that to have a machine inspected and ball barred or properly commissioned and ball barred.

    @bigrsthe1 Sorry you are having a bad time I do get where you are comming from on this.

    Oddly about the point you make is that a LOT of machines that you never normally see on the second hand market are appearing. Businesses pre-emptively getting rid of certain liabilities where they may have been financed to the max or over financed on certain machines. I.e. not necessarily going under but getting the jump on those more risky machines.

    Consequently a potential glut of good machines on the second hand market means that Machine Tool Builders in a tough financial climate might not sell so many new machines. A company like Makino (Japan) might be minded to keep staff on rather than lay people off. The USA might be different.

    If that $2500 keeps good support staff employed maybe that's not such a bad thing, it's a two way street I think - And good in terms of legacy machines... Not sure you could get the same through for example DMG Mori ?
    That all sounds good but answering one question through email or over the phone about what a ls28 code is isn't going to break Makino, especially when its one of their machines. I get paying for a million questions but come on really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by macds View Post
    Its been a while since using the older makino control, but go into the maintenence screen, and see if you can release the limit switch fault.
    They do have a pretty decent front end.

    Should say in the maintenence screen what ls28 is, I dont believe it to be a limit switch. I think it refers to an address in the logic ladder.

    Im kind of shocked they wouldnt help you over the phone.

    It lets me clear the code but it pops right back up.It doesn't say what it is in the maintenance screen unfortunately

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrsthe1 View Post
    That all sounds good but answering one question through email or over the phone about what a ls28 code is isn't going to break Makino, especially when its one of their machines. I get paying for a million questions but come on really?
    Aye,

    Vancbiker a forum member might know the answer to your question.

    I'm trying to delineate Fanuc 16i versus Makino Pro 3 control / layer / implementation etc.

    Soooo Makino essentially set a "boundary" with you and said 'No". And are in essence holding the info you might need to ransom.

    Unlike Fanuc type things with older machines, seems Makino have done a good job mopping up any documentation that would be posted for free on the web. But even then with more generic Fanuc documentation there can be hellishly difficult things to figure out that are MTB implementation specific (beyond just lost control parameters etc.). Seems Makino do things very consistently amongst different machines of a particular generation.

    A lot of the manuals that exist even ones that are paper manuals may not have the list of limit switches and corresponding wiring diagrams. Even installation manuals for the S33 don't show or list limit switches etc.

    I guess the tech in question (at Makino) was quite helpful in giving you the clue that it would be labelled
    LS905.

    It begs the question that if you don't have complete useful documentation for that machine then you are flying in the dark without instruments. (In terms of long terms service, repairs and maintenance.).

    My first question would be how to get the documentation I needed for that machine ?

    They (the Makino techs) are looking at documentation in printed form / on computer that you don't have.

    [That's probably gonna be several hundred dollars just for more relevant service type documentation.].


    Presumably if you are going to run that machine for maybe eight to ten years or more you will need to replace various parts and limit switches and maybe even one day a new spindle ?

    @bigrsthe1 What wiring diagrams for the machine do you have right now + exploded views etc. ?

    You need basic documentation so that you can at least order spare parts ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


    ** It's funny what you experience as obstructive I see as an opportunity. If things went sideways for me, then I would consider buying a bunch of older Makinos, recondition / upgrade some , keep one or two or three and sell on others as a side line for the impeding economic apocalypse ;-) Makino makes very good iron and their machines last waaaaay longer than they should / hold tolerances well. So having access to real Makino "Peeps" that really stand behind legacy equipment is rare [Not just mills but legacy EDM/Wire EDM equipment.]. Some of the other MTBs don't do that so well for legacy equipment like Hardinge, DMG Mori, Mazak (MAZAK they try to be helpful but the "knowledge" over the phone is not always there to the degree one might want.). @bigersthe1 Good that you got good free help from Matsuura.

    ++ More broadly with second hand equipment and doing one's own work, even with things like tractors/front end loaders my local Kubota place I try to give them some sort of business beyond just ordering parts so they don't have a problem telling me how to fix stuff like tricky hydraulic problems / best way to take stuff apart and replace stuff 'cuz other wise it could be a really expensive repair to have them "Do it" for me and waaay longer waiting list and down time. For a piece of equipment that you need running to stop things from going backwards any downtime is bad.

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    Just a WAG, but the screen says interlock. Could be a door switch somewhere.

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    What is the number of the alarm?

    If you hit the soft key on the screen (says ALARM), what is the alarm number, and what does it say?

    The alarm button is barely shown in the image you posted.

    You're better off searching your manuals for the relevant alarm.

    At the very least, I could cross reference the alarm number to see if it might match something on our a88 horizontal (doubtful but possible)




    While I appreciate that many companies don't charge for simple help, I will say that Makino's maintenance plan can be worth it. They are very helpful. We don't use it now, but when we got our A88 (used) it was tired and neglected and there were dozens of complicated things wrong with the machine and they sent plenty of extra documentation on how to fix some of it.

    While "all you want" is this limit switch location, you might end up using a lot more than you thought you would. Consider it the cost of business and roll it into the cost of your machine (if you end up paying for it, which you obviously won't)



    Edit: if LS28 really does correspond to LS905, you should be looking at the air pressure switch.

    pressureswitch.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrsthe1 View Post
    ...I've also searched my manuals and can't find LS28 or LS905. I will include pictures of my conversation with Makino and of the alarm code, any help will be greatly appreciated!!! THIS WILL BE THE LAST MAKINO I EVER OWN!! Thanks again everyone for the help and hopefully I can get this machine going with your help.
    By chance have you called a dealer? We are near a Productivity Inc dealer and whether I call for Makino support or Haas support they have always been helpful and know we will use them for parts and service.

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    I was hoping the guy would come back, hopefully my information was helpful. But he hasn't been back to see it yet.

    I was also wondering where I could send the bill. I'll only charge 1200$ for my help...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dandrummerman21 View Post
    I was hoping the guy would come back, hopefully my information was helpful. But he hasn't been back to see it yet.

    I was also wondering where I could send the bill. I'll only charge 1200$ for my help...
    Me too, I thought what you put out there looked very sound indeed !

    The bloke has already spent a month trying to get the machine ready.

    I'm glad to know the service side for older equipment with Makino is really there (at very least).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Me too, I thought what you put out there looked very sound indeed !

    The bloke has already spent a month trying to get the machine ready.

    I'm glad to know the service side for older equipment with Makino is really there (at very least).
    Looks like he is selling it anyway.

    Makino S33 SEE VIDEO - Moving and Priced to Sell | eBay

    Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by dandrummerman21 View Post
    Looks like he is selling it anyway.

    Makino S33 SEE VIDEO - Moving and Priced to Sell | eBay

    Lol
    @danddrummerman21 you are pretty sharp man (lol) .

    Doesn't look too bad, Yeah...

    "The spindle is super quiet" ... *

    Yeah 'cuz it doesn't turn.

    I have been looking at few S33(s) - There's a number of them out there usually pretty old and beaten almost to death, that one of Op's doesn't look too bad. Like in the video I'm more hands on so a pallet changer would get in the way of that. S33 does take up a lot of floor space for one spindle and a small table.

    $27K (not bad).

    I understand Op's predicament. Sign of the times that Makino Techs wouldn't hand that out for free as that essentially takes bread off the table for the other 19 people that work there (that department has to justify it's own existence.) . I don't subscribe to the "Giant corporations are people " verdict, but on the other hand unfortunately most businesses have $ as their core reason for being and are run as such to stay in business.

    You see a whole bunch of Makino horizontals on the second hand market, and several F5s and Ps 95 etc, V33(s) of one vintage or another, but usually very high hours and then the question becomes spindle replacement + "other" - being able to pick the brains of these service techs before you buy would be super useful.

    Often you will see a "lone" F5 purchased for a special project like in the medical sector and run morning noon and night for eleven years (or so) and then is sold ~ Reason for sale becomes hard to determine, or whether spindle replacement is so expensive that fair market value of the machine / sale is a better idea ? [The Newer PS 105 (different style of machine) has a spindle cartridge/ (module) design that is cheaper / simpler and much quicker and easier to replace/ switch out - (Integrated spindle motor.).].



    Very rare to see a dedicated Makino 5 axis machine on the second hand market ~ That's a good sign (very low lemon factor).

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___

    * Or did turn but now doesn't turn due to Makino's strict policy of not telling you where the limit switch is.

    I'm wondering if the S33 uses the air /oil under-race lubrication system , would kind of make sense if air/oil/ lubrication cycles are not right (LS 905 as per @dandrummerman21) then the machine would pre-emptively lock out the spindle to prevent damage to the various bearings. - Being inner race fed centrifugal force / centripetal force of the turning spindle the air oil lubricant goes from the inner race through the bearings to the outer race (much like a jet engine). [Factoid apparently Makino developed of lot of their EDM / Wire EDM techniques to make these long narrow channels in their under race lubrication system of their spindles... If there is debris clogging stuff up there could be a detected fault in the return pressure lines/circuit for that system. (?) ].
    Last edited by cameraman; 08-08-2020 at 05:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dandrummerman21 View Post
    What is the number of the alarm?

    If you hit the soft key on the screen (says ALARM), what is the alarm number, and what does it say?

    The alarm button is barely shown in the image you posted.

    You're better off searching your manuals for the relevant alarm.

    At the very least, I could cross reference the alarm number to see if it might match something on our a88 horizontal (doubtful but possible)




    While I appreciate that many companies don't charge for simple help, I will say that Makino's maintenance plan can be worth it. They are very helpful. We don't use it now, but when we got our A88 (used) it was tired and neglected and there were dozens of complicated things wrong with the machine and they sent plenty of extra documentation on how to fix some of it.

    While "all you want" is this limit switch location, you might end up using a lot more than you thought you would. Consider it the cost of business and roll it into the cost of your machine (if you end up paying for it, which you obviously won't)



    Edit: if LS28 really does correspond to LS905, you should be looking at the air pressure switch.

    pressureswitch.jpg


    That is exactly what it was. I scoured my manuals till I found it. Thanks for the help!

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    Default Solved!

    So after scouring my manuals for hours I finally discovered that LS28 AKA LS950 is the air pressure switch. I think its really petty of Makino to not just tell me this was what the code meant. They literally told me I had to pay them $2500 for that information. I will never own another Makino again. After some inspection I figured out that the air regulator on the machine was bad and not letting more than 25 PSI in. I'll be replacing it this week and keep everyone updated. Thanks again everyone for the comments and suggestions for help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrsthe1 View Post
    So after scouring my manuals for hours I finally discovered that LS28 AKA LS950 is the air pressure switch. I think its really petty of Makino to not just tell me this was what the code meant. They literally told me I had to pay them $2500 for that information. I will never own another Makino again. After some inspection I figured out that the air regulator on the machine was bad and not letting more than 25 PSI in. I'll be replacing it this week and keep everyone updated. Thanks again everyone for the comments and suggestions for help!
    That's super awesome !

    Let us know how you get on with the machine in general I'd be super interested (of course). - Hope in some sense you manage to soldier on with it and it actually makes a useful return for you , or are you still minded to sell it ? You are moving shops ? upscaling , down sizing or just something different ?

    Ta,

    Eric,

    Glad you managed to figure it out with relatively sparse clues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That's super awesome !


    Let us know how you get on with the machine in general I'd be super interested (of course). - Hope in some sense you manage to soldier on with it and it actually makes a useful return for you , or are you still minded to sell it ? You are moving shops ? upscaling , down sizing or just something different ?

    Ta,

    Eric,

    Glad you managed to figure it out with relatively sparse clues.
    Thanks for the help and support. I actually sold this as soon as I got it hooked up. Seemed like a really nice machine but after the Makino customer service letdown I didn’t want to own anything Makino ever again. It literally sold as soon as I put it up. I mean they spent more effort writing out that whole message about paying them $2500 for support than it would’ve been to just say, hey LS950 means low air. That’s the type of company I won’t give my money or support to.


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