Mazak vs Haas or other standard G code machines

chappyd · Sep 24, 2018

Hi All,

My company is looking to purchase a new Lathe this year. The new Lathe Machinist we hired 6 months ago loves Mazaks, and lets us know this all the time. All our other lathes are Okumas. They don't want to buy another Okuma at this time due to cost. My boss is considering a Mazak, but I have heard some things about them, and need some real information. A little background first- We are a small job shop and 1st tier supplier to a major aerospace company. Now all the programming is done in engineering. Programs are sent out and sent back when changes are made. They are all stored on our CNC server.

A couple of issues-

I have heard that the program language is very different. That we won't be able to program offline in the engineering office, but programming must be done at the machine.

I am told we can store the program in Engineering, but cannot change it in our Cimco edit. Also the programs will be specific to the Mazak and cannot be used in the other machines. I need to be able to run any turning job on any machine without having to create a 2nd program.

These 2 things are enough for me to be against getting a different machine.

Could some of you shed some light on these concerns? Any other issues compatibility wise I should be concerned with?

TIA, Chappy

DMF_TomB · Sep 24, 2018

chappyd said:
Hi All,

My company is looking to purchase a new Lathe this year. The new Lathe Machinist we hired 6 months ago loves Mazaks, and lets us know this all the time. All our other lathes are Okumas. They don't want to buy another Okuma at this time due to cost. My boss is considering a Mazak, but I have heard some things about them, and need some real information. A little background first- We are a small job shop and 1st tier supplier to a major aerospace company. Now all the programming is done in engineering. Programs are sent out and sent back when changes are made. They are all stored on our CNC server.

A couple of issues-

I have heard that the program language is very different. That we won't be able to program offline in the engineering office, but programming must be done at the machine.

I am told we can store the program in Engineering, but cannot change it in our Cimco edit. Also the programs will be specific to the Mazak and cannot be used in the other machines. I need to be able to run any turning job on any machine without having to create a 2nd program.

These 2 things are enough for me to be against getting a different machine.

Could some of you shed some light on these concerns? Any other issues compatibility wise I should be concerned with?

TIA, Chappy

vast majority of gcode is done with CAM post processor specific to the machine it will be used on AND of course many of the same machines can run different with different parameter settings
.
some Mazaks will run gcode IF you pay for the option that it can run gcode. if you dont pay for that option many will not run gcode. its normally not free you pay extra money for Mazak to run gcode

litlerob1 · Sep 24, 2018

Okuma is better though.

With that being said, Okumas programming language is unique. It's still G-code, but for Lathe it uses different designations for canned cycles. And a few M-codes as well. Mazak uses EIA which is G-code and it is Fanuc based, very similar and common. Most Machines are very similar in that respect. Okuma is the oddball. But Okuma is better.

R

cameraman · Sep 24, 2018

chappyd said:
Hi All,

My company is looking to purchase a new Lathe this year. The new Lathe Machinist we hired 6 months ago loves Mazaks, and lets us know this all the time. All our other lathes are Okumas. They don't want to buy another Okuma at this time due to cost. My boss is considering a Mazak, but I have heard some things about them, and need some real information. A little background first- We are a small job shop and 1st tier supplier to a major aerospace company. Now all the programming is done in engineering. Programs are sent out and sent back when changes are made. They are all stored on our CNC server.

A couple of issues-

I have heard that the program language is very different. That we won't be able to program offline in the engineering office, but programming must be done at the machine.

I am told we can store the program in Engineering, but cannot change it in our Cimco edit. Also the programs will be specific to the Mazak and cannot be used in the other machines. I need to be able to run any turning job on any machine without having to create a 2nd program.

These 2 things are enough for me to be against getting a different machine.

Could some of you shed some light on these concerns? Any other issues compatibility wise I should be concerned with?

TIA, Chappy

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...eia-iso-programming-mazak-qtn300-m-ii-288793/

^^^ Read this

SMOOTH TECHNOLOGY

^^^ Download the brochure (some clearer explanation of Mazatrol versus EIA.).

CNC Controls

Probably you will be using the G or C smooth controls.

Digital Solutions

^^^ Boarder picture for servers etc.

Not sure about cimco edit... And also wondering whether you are boxing yourself in there... Not sure how many programs are 100% portable / idiot proof from machine to different machine even under ideal circumstances.

Although if you buy ten MAZAKs 5 years from now then maybe that makes life easier long term lol.

How many Okuma's do you have running now ? [If you are allowed to say].

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Depending on complexity of parts you might be surprised how fast Mazatrol really is to program with + graphical feedback and editing on the more sophisticated controls... There is programming interface for all that that can be run from a computer in your CAD/CAM office if you want. I.e. Mazatrol from scratch might actually be faster than re-tweaking everything in you programming office ? AND maybe more congruent to "Print".

Are these like MSY type machines or simpler ?

DMF_TomB · Sep 24, 2018

many mcodes are specific to certain machines and most CAM programs avoid using cycles other than drilling cycles
.
big thing is many machines can run different depending on parameter settings. when you press reset the defaults in effect can often be changed.
.
many CAM programs can be set to repeat modal gcodes which helps with restarts. almost all CAM programs you got to adjust things to get it to work good with specific machines. very rare you can run gcode on different machines from different manufacturers without having to edit program

Mtndew · Sep 24, 2018

chappyd said:
Hi All,

My company is looking to purchase a new Lathe this year. The new Lathe Machinist we hired 6 months ago loves Mazaks, and lets us know this all the time. All our other lathes are Okumas. They don't want to buy another Okuma at this time due to cost.

Cost? I wasn't aware that Mazak was cheaper in price. They're both very good machines.
Which lathe are you looking at (if it we an Okuma). They just had one HELL of a deal a couple of months ago on the L3000-e. Got it damn near fully loaded for $80k WITH conveyor!
But I think that deal has ended.

m98custom1212 · Sep 24, 2018

DMF_TomB said:
vast majority of gcode is done with CAM post processor specific to the machine it will be used on AND of course many of the same machines can run different with different parameter settings
.
some Mazaks will run gcode IF you pay for the option that it can run gcode. if you dont pay for that option many will not run gcode. its normally not free you pay extra money for Mazak to run gcode

G code comes standard on every Mazak since 2007...

cameraman · Sep 24, 2018

litlerob1 said:
Okuma is better though.

With that being said, Okumas programming language is unique. It's still G-code, but for Lathe it uses different designations for canned cycles. And a few M-codes as well. Mazak uses EIA which is G-code and it is Fanuc based, very similar and common. Most Machines are very similar in that respect. Okuma is the oddball. But Okuma is better.

R

Okuma is better..?

Better is better..? (Good is better than bad ?) [And other amazing insights ;-)].

Okuma is better at what than MAZAK (lathe wise)… ?

Remember those Genos machines ≠ MAZAK

Something like the LB3000 EXII different animal than something like a MAZAK QTN 200 …

the Multus Okuma B axis mill turn stuff is in different league (in a good way) than the LB 3000 Ex kind of thing.

______________________________________________________________________________

Personal choice (better ? not better for higher tolerances for roundness and surface finish)

In a high end Okuma environment (mega aerospace environment) that won't matter as high tolerance parts coming off an LB machine may go to grinding anyway (not many smaller shops have perfect turning to grinding work flow).

MAZAK's integrated direct drive spindle head brings some "goodness" to higher tolerance work (if you need it) and the control is no brainer.

________________

BUT for me for our stupid applications if the LB3000 EX was capable of stupid tolerances we need then I would buy and LB 3000 EX without question. AND if tolerances were not so critical and $$$$$$ was not so super critical DMG Mori NLX 2500 (and such are nicely engineered machines (don't like the design of the control or guarding / sheet-ish metal).

cameraman · Sep 24, 2018

Mtndew said:
Cost? I wasn't aware that Mazak was cheaper in price. They're both very good machines.
Which lathe are you looking at (if it we an Okuma). They just had one HELL of a deal a couple of months ago on the L3000-e. Got it damn near fully loaded for $80k WITH conveyor!
But I think that deal has ended.

+1

That was my thought too I didn't think MAZAK's were any cheaper than LB's or Genos'eseses either.

dodgin · Sep 24, 2018

chappyd said:
Hi All,

My company is looking to purchase a new Lathe this year. The new Lathe Machinist we hired 6 months ago loves Mazaks, and lets us know this all the time. All our other lathes are Okumas. They don't want to buy another Okuma at this time due to cost. My boss is considering a Mazak, but I have heard some things about them, and need some real information. A little background first- We are a small job shop and 1st tier supplier to a major aerospace company. Now all the programming is done in engineering. Programs are sent out and sent back when changes are made. They are all stored on our CNC server.

A couple of issues-

I have heard that the program language is very different. That we won't be able to program offline in the engineering office, but programming must be done at the machine.

I am told we can store the program in Engineering, but cannot change it in our Cimco edit. Also the programs will be specific to the Mazak and cannot be used in the other machines. I need to be able to run any turning job on any machine without having to create a 2nd program.

These 2 things are enough for me to be against getting a different machine.

Could some of you shed some light on these concerns? Any other issues compatibility wise I should be concerned with?

TIA, Chappy

Like everyone else has said, Mazak will run g-code in EIA, but the programs you post will be different enough from any other g-code machine that you won't be able to post out code for the Mazak and then plug and play into whatever other machine you want.

The programs that are made at the Mazak controller can be made/edited offline in engineering with the right software...see Mazacam or Griffo Bros. I know that a seat of Mazacam isn't cheap, probably not something you're going to buy for one machine, but it can definitely be done.

Kingbob · Sep 24, 2018

I run an all Mazak shop and likely always will I love them dearly. I run both g code and mazatrol depending on the task.
As far as the program compatibility between mazak and okuma I have no idea, if your post processors are set up right it "shouldn't" be a problem.
Cost and performance wise as long as you are comparing similar models it should be an apples to apples comparison both are top notch Japanese machines. Honestly if I got hired at your shop to make this decision, even being a life long mazak guy, I'd suck it up and get another okuma. No reason to rock the boat if this is what you shop and engineering is used too.
If there is a misconception among the management at your company that okumas are overpriced just post the exact model of okuma lathe with needed options here and we can direct you to similar models from Mazak and DMG-Mori, I am sure the prices will be fairly similar for the mazak and a bit higher for the DMG.

Bobw · Sep 24, 2018

m98custom1212 said:
G code comes standard on every Mazak since 2007...

I thought it became standard with the "+" machines, around '95 or so.

SIM · Sep 24, 2018

My thought has been I program in my CAM software, offline. The software Generates the Code for each machine. I do not deal with each machines idiosyncrasies, quirks and nuances...that's all taken care of by the Post processor.
So if my program is running on a Haas and I want to stick it into an Emco Mair Lathe, I just call up the program, call up the Post Processor for the machine I want to run in then hit Generate...Ta Da! Code for that machine.

cameraman · Sep 24, 2018

Kingbob said:
I run an all Mazak shop and likely always will I love them dearly. I run both g code and mazatrol depending on the task.
As far as the program compatibility between mazak and okuma I have no idea, if your post processors are set up right it "shouldn't" be a problem.
Cost and performance wise as long as you are comparing similar models it should be an apples to apples comparison both are top notch Japanese machines. Honestly if I got hired at your shop to make this decision, even being a life long mazak guy, I'd suck it up and get another okuma. No reason to rock the boat if this is what you shop and engineering is used too.
If there is a misconception among the management at your company that okumas are overpriced just post the exact model of okuma lathe with needed options here and we can direct you to similar models from Mazak and DMG-Mori, I am sure the prices will be fairly similar for the mazak and a bit higher for the DMG.

All good (advice),

I'm not 100% clear if all the lathes are made in Japan for Okuma... I thought the LB's were also made in Taiwan or just the castings ? But then again you have MAZAK lathes being made here in Kentucky... Kentucky vs Taiwan ????? (that's a tough call).

I have to say if you are "quick on the draw" Okuma does have these cyclical deal times where you can pick up a very good machine for less... I don't think MAZAK does that.

I'm wondering too why they don't "Suck it up" also and get another OKUMA (unless it's a genos machine (and I'm not trashing GEnos machines either)).

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From time to time on PM forum the question arises whether a shop can be BOTH an OKUMA and MAZAK oriented shop; or whether that causes problems for employees and operators having those two different controls be "At large" on the shop floor ? And hence Okuma and MAZAK on a shop floor will in most cases be mutually exclusive ? (especially for aerospace).

Can they co-exist ;-) ?

DMF_TomB · Sep 24, 2018

Bobw said:
I thought it became standard with the "+" machines, around '95 or so.

i have used older mazaks that could not run EIA gcode cause it was a option not paid for.

Matt@RFR · Sep 24, 2018

chappyd said:
I have heard that the program language is very different. That we won't be able to program offline in the engineering office, but programming must be done at the machine.

I am told we can store the program in Engineering, but cannot change it in our Cimco edit. Also the programs will be specific to the Mazak and cannot be used in the other machines. I need to be able to run any turning job on any machine without having to create a 2nd program.

Beyond machine brands, it sounds like you have a machinist who is unwilling to learn something new, and is trying to protect his job by claiming only he can do the programming. I think that's your first problem to tackle.

DMF_TomB · Sep 24, 2018

mazak conversational programming can be very fast and normally done while machine is running a different program making parts. cnc can run a program while programming a 2nd program
.
CAM on a desktop computer often done on more complicated parts but often 90% of parts are programmed conversationally at the cnc. depends on parts being made if they are complicated parts or relatively simple parts

SMT · Sep 24, 2018

I'll add my .02

I'm also a small shop and I started with a used Mazak SQT18MY, then added a used V10 mill, than added a brand new 2012 QTN200 with 12' FMB bar loader.

The QTN was absolutely terrible. Not only was it slower on the same exact job (same cutting data too!) as the 1996 SQT I started with, the build quality and rigidity was low end. The distributor that sold me the machine, as well as Mazak, were terrible for support.

In the meantime I ended up buying a used Okuma lathe. The local Okuma distributor supported that machine, that they made no money on, worlds better than Mazak supported their machine. This was a trade in so I got it for what the used guys were offering.

Fast forward to 2015. We plain wore out that SQT18 and decided to trade it in, along with the QTN200 and FMB loader on a brand new Okuma LB3000exmy-wBB. In the 2.5 years I owned that QTN our total down time was just over 2 months.

Read it again. 2 MONTHS. Mazak didn't give a shit.

I'm 100% Okuma here now. LB3000exmywbb, Genos M560, older MX horizontal as well as a smattering of 2 axis lathes and one with milling. They are hands down better in every way you could ask me to compare to Mazak and so is the distributor.

The reason I bother posting at all - The qtn was so bad I got a second year of warranty. 1 week before it ran out, a service tech was fixing something-or-other and by accident unclipped the lock on the x axis brake connector. So, at intermittent times, the x would lock down tight and refuse to move. We were down, and waited 3 days for someone to come see the machine.

By the time someone got to us, the machine was out of warranty. I guessed about the plug, locked the two halves together with the latch and the machine ran fine. The tech showed up, confirmed what I eventually figured out and I got a $600 bill.

I fought it since their guy caused the whole thing, they came back and said pay it or it goes to collections. I told them I'd pay it and for the rest of my life tell anyone who'd listen about what a shitty experience I had with Mazak and AW Miller. They're not allowed in my shop anymore.

cameraman · Sep 24, 2018

SMT said:
I'll add my .02

I'm also a small shop and I started with a used Mazak SQT18MY, then added a used V10 mill, than added a brand new 2012 QTN200 with 12' FMB bar loader.

The QTN was absolutely terrible. Not only was it slower on the same exact job (same cutting data too!) as the 1996 SQT I started with, the build quality and rigidity was low end. The distributor that sold me the machine, as well as Mazak, were terrible for support.

In the meantime I ended up buying a used Okuma lathe. The local Okuma distributor supported that machine, that they made no money on, worlds better than Mazak supported their machine. This was a trade in so I got it for what the used guys were offering.

Fast forward to 2015. We plain wore out that SQT18 and decided to trade it in, along with the QTN200 and FMB loader on a brand new Okuma LB3000exmy-wBB. In the 2.5 years I owned that QTN our total down time was just over 2 months.

Read it again. 2 MONTHS. Mazak didn't give a shit.

I'm 100% Okuma here now. LB3000exmywbb, Genos M560, older MX horizontal as well as a smattering of 2 axis lathes and one with milling. They are hands down better in every way you could ask me to compare to Mazak and so is the distributor.

The reason I bother posting at all - The qtn was so bad I got a second year of warranty. 1 week before it ran out, a service tech was fixing something-or-other and by accident unclipped the lock on the x axis brake connector. So, at intermittent times, the x would lock down tight and refuse to move. We were down, and waited 3 days for someone to come see the machine.

By the time someone got to us, the machine was out of warranty. I guessed about the plug, locked the two halves together with the latch and the machine ran fine. The tech showed up, confirmed what I eventually figured out and I got a $600 bill.

I fought it since their guy caused the whole thing, they came back and said pay it or it goes to collections. I told them I'd pay it and for the rest of my life tell anyone who'd listen about what a shitty experience I had with Mazak and AW Miller. They're not allowed in my shop anymore.

Was that in 2012 ? ish

Good post BTW.

cnctoolcat · Sep 24, 2018

G code comes standard on every Mazak since 2007...
I thought it became standard with the "+" machines, around '95 or so.

Bob is correct, Mazaks have had g-code capability as standard since the introduction of the "T- and M-plus" controls in 1995.

SMT, hate to hear about your bad experiences with the QTN. Every builder has sold a few lemons, and how the builder and distributor handle the matter is very important. I have known Mazak to take back a problem machine, and replace it with new. Depends on the distributor/district managers I guess?

ToolCat

Mazak vs Haas or other standard G code machines

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