MAZATROL MILLING VS DOOSAN EZ GUIDE vs Dmg Capps
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    Default MAZATROL MILLING VS DOOSAN EZ GUIDE vs Dmg Capps

    We will be purchasing another vertical mill in the next couple of weeks. Currently have all Haas's for milling. Over the last few years, we have been replacing our haas lathes with Mazak. Looking to make a switch in the milling department as the need comes up.

    95% tool steel. Mostly dynamic milling with MasterCam. Very large vise aluminum job coming in the next week or two. Need to do simple things at the control such as making fixtures, without a MC program. (short staffed) We want to switch to a conversational control, as I am done teaching basic G code.

    So, having never touched a mazak mill, I have heard the milling is not as stupid easy as the turning. Doosan uses EZ Guide, if that is correct,. Dmg Mori uses Capps.

    All 3 of these machines, as far as iron goes, is perfectly fine. Service for all three comes from an hour away.
    Any help on which of these machines conversational programming would be best suited for daily simple ops. Facing, simple shapes, drill/tap. circular interp.

    Thanks in advance,

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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxergary View Post
    We will be purchasing another vertical mill in the next couple of weeks. Currently have all Haas's for milling. Over the last few years, we have been replacing our haas lathes with Mazak. Looking to make a switch in the milling department as the need comes up.

    95% tool steel. Mostly dynamic milling with MasterCam. Very large vise aluminum job coming in the next week or two. Need to do simple things at the control such as making fixtures, without a MC program. (short staffed) We want to switch to a conversational control, as I am done teaching basic G code.

    So, having never touched a mazak mill, I have heard the milling is not as stupid easy as the turning. Doosan uses EZ Guide, if that is correct,. Dmg Mori uses Capps.

    All 3 of these machines, as far as iron goes, is perfectly fine. Service for all three comes from an hour away.
    Any help on which of these machines conversational programming would be best suited for daily simple ops. Facing, simple shapes, drill/tap. circular interp.

    Thanks in advance,

    I think a lot of folks would say that "conversational" on MAZAK on mill is pointless but kicks ass on a turning center.

    Hurco is usually the goto on that. [As someone that has been involved in computer science and advanced interface design, watching someone conversationally program at the HURCO control makes me want to fetch a can of gasoline and a match... Absolute torture to watch for me, but that control is good at other things; but good for part programming/best-ish + fixtures at the control ].


    Don't know beans about DMG mori "caps"; and EZ guide is what it is... [Maybe it was "EZ" circa 1988 ?].

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    IMNSHO, if you're going to invest in a Milling Machine in that quality tier, forget Conversational---NOW. If you want to retro a BP with Proto or EZ-trak or something great. There are about Eleventy Hundred reasons. Invest in software.

    R

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    Invest in software huh? Didnt read my post I guess. Thanks for the input on a bridgeport though. Moving on.

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    What you are talking about is the need for this "Model"/approach.





    Does beg the question why there isn't something more like fusion 360 on the control ? Rather than really painful approach to inputting spatial data + machine/tool set up ?


    __________________________________________________ ______________________________


    Sounds like you have to import DXF profiles or CAD elements to create like soft jaws in vices of more complex profiles..?

    I think the DMG mori controls have the ability to import dxf and other formats perhaps for that very reason.

    Doesn't OSP Okuma do that ?

    _____________________________________

    @gixxergary Hurco does make some decent iron on the "Mill" front... VMX and BX series (bridge style)…


    There are one or two very specialized companies that have really gone to town on the control... Smaller outfit that import Taiwanese iron and have a really massive touchscreen can't remember their name.

    There's some other stuff too... just trying find it in my foggy brain... Ohh yeah HEIDENHAIN... for years they have had a lot of pretty professional level stuff you can program on the control + a lot of training for that.

    ** Haven't seen any demos for MAZAK smooth control for conversational 3 axis but I have to say on the SMOOTH X control programming mill turn prismatic and more complex seemed pretty straight forward ( I have to say)… Spent a couple of days throwing quick prototype complicated-ish parts at it and was pretty quick and efficient and easy to edit ?

    Sooooo maybe things have gotten better on the 3 axis Mill front with MAZAK ? (shrugging shoulders)… If you are going to IMTS you might want to check that out ?

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    Thanks for the input. Didnt think of Hurco. Always thought of them being on the less rigid side, like haas. We are going to IMTS, but would like to place an order before the show. Checking out mazak and doosan tomorrow.

    We are so buried with work, absolutely ridiculous. Trouble finding people, just like everyone else in the country. If we can save time on simple stuff normally done at the control, would be a big help to us.

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    If the Doosan mill is like the lathes the EZ-Guide is basically the Fanuc Manual Guide-i with a bit of extra Doosan functionality.

    I have only ever used Fanuc controllers so nothing to compare with but for simple onesy twosey stuff I like it.
    From what you have mentioned above i think it should be fine except for circular interpolation.
    I just checked our Fanuc Oi-MF controller. There is a pocket function that you could produce a circle but not sure how good it would be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxergary View Post
    Thanks for the input. Didnt think of Hurco. Always thought of them being on the less rigid side, like haas. We are going to IMTS, but would like to place an order before the show. Checking out mazak and doosan tomorrow.

    We are so buried with work, absolutely ridiculous. Trouble finding people, just like everyone else in the country. If we can save time on simple stuff normally done at the control, would be a big help to us.
    MAZAK offer FREE training too if you can send your staff to one of their training facilities.

    AND there are online resources that are subscription based from 3rd party's such as Tooling-U .

    I think keeping younger operators engaged with modern controls that they can feel they can get a handle on without frustration is important.


    That must be hassle to spend hundreds of hours teaching G-code and promising employees leave 'cuz they are bored and frustrated and walk out the door with the hundreds of hours you put into them.


    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________


    Still not 100% sure on "Smudge screen technology/touch screen tech" for machine controls ?

    Seems the DMG one's might be easier to wipe down ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    What you are talking about is the need for this "Model"/approach.

    Does beg the question why there isn't something more like fusion 360 on the control ? Rather than really painful approach to inputting spatial data + machine/tool set up ?

    Doesn't OSP Okuma do that ?
    The OSP doesn't, but ®Admac parts does, which is Okumas singular/proprietary CAD/CAM package. It's geared exactly toward the OSP control. But it's on a PC. But IGF provides a Solid model of the part you are Machining at the control, but you need to go through all the steps like Mazatrol to create it. For the Solid it's more intuitive, but it's a very similar process for the actual Toolpath.

    R

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    I totally get what your saying with being able to bang out a quick program at the control, I've done it.
    What I've found is MC takes me no more time and I don't fat finger a number or letter at the control.
    If your operators don't have access to a seat of MC in the shop, I can understand that.
    Another option would be for the Programmer to make some simple Macros (drilling, pocket milling, circ interp, and facing) and save them in the control. It would be just like conversational programming for the machinist.
    In my shop if it doesn't come through programming Dept I wouldn't want it ran...

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    If you are programming in Mcam it doesnt matter what you get of the 3.

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    Mazatrol milling is kick ass for 2.5D parts, programmed at the machine.

    Sure, there can be limitations in what you can do, but for face milling, side milling, slot milling, all types of hole operations, etc., once you learn it, it's plenty fast and powerful.

    As with most conversational controls, you pick the process you want to perform, input your tools and their respective cutting parameters (Mazatrol will automatically input suggested tools and feeds/speeds --- you can add or delete as you want), then just input your geometry.

    You can easily create any 2.5D geometric shape you want. Pockets of square, round, or irregular shapes are easy...even pockets with islands in the middle.

    Mazatrol milling is more complex than mazatrol turning, but that is because milling is more complex than turning!

    Mazatrol always offers the "manual process unit" for stuff you just can't get the mazatrol units to do. Manual process is basically a fill-in-the-blank g-code unit, looks kinda like a simple spreadsheet.

    I love my Mazak mill and the ease of programming fixtures, vice jaws, and little jobs right at the machine.

    Editing feeds/speeds/doc and geometry is stupid easy.

    Cutter comp is automatic, you don't have to think about it. Just go into the Tool Data page and give the tool a different diameter, then viola, your geometry cut by that tool is modified accordingly! No approach/retract bullshit, or turning the g-code on or off...it's automatic, use it if you want, and if not, you don't have to.

    And repeating programs at a different work offset --- for multiple parts and/or fixtures, is just simple to do.

    My 2 cents anyway,

    ToolCat

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    Here is a quick sample of how simple jobs that look somewhat difficult to do once you know how to use mazatrol. I made this jig up the other day for a part I make and basically I had to mill 5mm deep from the Z0 but I wanted to leave some sections which will be used to locate the part and some M16 holes to clamp the part down. If you look at the sample program using the step unit all I do is on line 1 tell the machine the outside shape of the material starting from X0 Y0 and X640 Y-390 then I tell it the positions of the sections I want left which are the 5 numbered sections in the 2nd picture of the plate and the machine automatically generates a complete toolpath to mill away all the remaining material inside the shape I set on line 1 leaving only the sections behind that I told it on the next 5 lines.

    A jig like that can obviously be made using cam very easily but it took me less then 15mins to write the entire program for that jig standing in front of the machine. There are tons of other very useful time saving features which I use daily and couldn't imagine not having them anymore.

    Short of machining 3d shapes there hasn’t been anything I haven’t been able to write in mazatrol for all the milling we do and some look pretty complex but are quite simple to program. I spent the first 17 years using Fanuc controls and after 3 days of mazatrol training I was good to go. It is very simple to pick up and after 2 years working on mazatrol I never want to use anything else.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1851-2.jpg   img_1848-2.jpg  

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    So while you are finger caming this job is the machine running or sitting ?also the pic I see looks like generic pocket toolpath if u r using mastercam or the likes they would be dynamic tool paths that are lots faster and the tooling lasts way longer who’s buying the tooling that the old style toolpaths waste? I have a computer less then 5 feet from the machines it saves tons of time.



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    Thanks for all the input. Took a long look at the 530C today. 2.5 hours to be exact. Very impressed with the iron and layout. Quality of the build looks to be top notch. Pricing, well, this one was expensive. Had them quote some productive options along with an indexer with 8" chuck. Impressed with the 1650 IPM rapids. Took my shop manager with to go over some basic programming. Looks to me, that a week of training, and a week of playing around, and most simple ops can be done quickly.
    Then, we went to doosan. Couldn't have been more disappointed . But, price was far, far less. That control looked straight out of the 80's. Looking forward to checking out DMG next. Hurco, will have to wait until the show.

    Thanks again for the input. Its easy to spend a lot of money. ( if you have it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Nelson View Post
    So while you are finger caming this job is the machine running or sitting ?also the pic I see looks like generic pocket toolpath if u r using mastercam or the likes they would be dynamic tool paths that are lots faster and the tooling lasts way longer who’s buying the tooling that the old style toolpaths waste? I have a computer less then 5 feet from the machines it saves tons of time.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    So you are going to buy every machinist a seat of Master Cam + 'puter…

    The thing that get's me is a control like Hurco or Mazak Smooth X has enough computing power to easily run something like Fusion 360 on the control... ?

    I think the Hurco has native dynamic tool paths / ultimotion etc. that's taken care of when you use smudge screen technology to make your on-control program.


    If you look at the "chronic" Hurco info-vid they have an explanation as to machinists hanging around waiting for the "CAM" programmers to deliver what needs to be delivered. Hurco asserts that programmers should be left in peace to program the really complex stuff and the machinists at the machine can program ALL the simpler 2 1/2 D or even 5 axis simple parts on the control... Straight from a print.


    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________


    Here's kinda the problem (I've seen) sometimes the smartest guy on the floor is the best programmer CAD/CAM and is also the best machinist on the floor... (why 'cuz he's smarter than the average bear). I.e. can deliver the best work. Things can get a little awkward / bad blood when the programmer has to be at the machine to ensure quality work while the 2nd or 3rd best programmer / machinist has taken his chair cuz he doesn't have the machining skills.


    I know kinda Off topic but I wonder if there's still a bit of "upstairs/down-strairs" "White collar / blue collar" 'cuz people standing at the machine can't be seen to be doing "CAD and CAM" at the machine. God forbid they sit down at 'puter next to the machine Like what you are saying @DNelson with a mouse in their mousing hand doing stuff ? I'm sure you are doing stuff in a more forward thinking and "technical way"---> Grey collar / combined engineering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxergary View Post
    Thanks for all the input. Took a long look at the 530C today. 2.5 hours to be exact. Very impressed with the iron and layout. Quality of the build looks to be top notch. Pricing, well, this one was expensive. Had them quote some productive options along with an indexer with 8" chuck. Impressed with the 1650 IPM rapids. Took my shop manager with to go over some basic programming. Looks to me, that a week of training, and a week of playing around, and most simple ops can be done quickly.
    Then, we went to doosan. Couldn't have been more disappointed . But, price was far, far less. That control looked straight out of the 80's. Looking forward to checking out DMG next. Hurco, will have to wait until the show.

    Thanks again for the input. Its easy to spend a lot of money. ( if you have it)
    I was really impressed with the 530C too in the flesh... (really crisp engineering) Almost mold capable / quality moves … but YES quite a bit of sticker shock especially if you want a 4th axis etc. C-frame machine

    A machine like Okuma m-560V is real winner but not so much if you need to program at the control... [bridge style]. Mazaks bridge style machine is waaaaaaaay more expensive. More like an Okuma MB (price wise)

    So maybe a Hurco BX40i would be a compromise... and LOT you can do at the control.

    Machine Specifications

    A lot of machine but still not super cheap. That's Hurco's bridge style machine.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

    Picking up on DNelson's idea a computer, a trolley and something like Fusion 360 (for 2 1/2 D parts) + Okuma Genos M-560v might get you everything you want ? For less $ ? And a machine that lasts almost forever ?

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    I know it sounds stupid but if you calculate the cost of the software and computer having it at the machine will make you more money then you would imagine month to month it will win every time. Just the simulation and very low scrap rate is worth the cost if you are working in expensive material or parts that have a lot of time in them to get scrapped at the last op. I’m sorry if I seem like a ass but I strongly believe everything I typed. Thanks for listening Don Nelson


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    Quote Originally Posted by D Nelson View Post
    So while you are finger caming this job is the machine running or sitting ?also the pic I see looks like generic pocket toolpath if u r using mastercam or the likes they would be dynamic tool paths that are lots faster and the tooling lasts way longer who’s buying the tooling that the old style toolpaths waste? I have a computer less then 5 feet from the machines it saves tons of time.
    You write the program in the background while the machine is running the current run of parts. Also with the slots yes I used a standard slotting toolpath but I could have just as easily used a 2d adaptive toolpath right on the mazatrol program going full depth and whatever woc stepover I wanted but its only 11mm deep slot so it wasn't a big deal either way.

    As for writing the program on the control instead of cam software we don't have any nor need any since we write all our programs of our mazak lathes and mills directly. The parts we make are quite simple and imo just as fast if not faster to do those on the machines themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFanboy View Post
    You write the program in the background while the machine is running the current run of parts. Also with the slots yes I used a standard slotting toolpath but I could have just as easily used a 2d adaptive toolpath right on the mazatrol program going full depth and whatever woc stepover I wanted but its only 11mm deep slot so it wasn't a big deal either way.

    As for writing the program on the control instead of cam software we don't have any nor need any since we write all our programs of our mazak lathes and mills directly. The parts we make are quite simple and imo just as fast if not faster to do those on the machines themselves.
    I guess I stand corrected. If I thought I needed a high end machine I’d have high end software driving it. But I respect your idea in the end it’s your business. Sorry to ruffle up the feathers. Don


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