MAZATROL MILLING VS DOOSAN EZ GUIDE vs Dmg Capps - Page 3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spruewell View Post
    Sorry I haven’t had the luxury of experiencing a multitude of different controls, so maybe this isn’t such an issue:
    If all your programming is conversational and lives on the control, then what do you do when that machine goes down taking all your hours of programming with it? Not to mention how do you transfer those programs to a new machine that may not have a compatible version of conversational software?
    There are a number of ways you can backup programs with the smooth controllers we use either using a simple USB drive which I do every now and again or since all the machines are networked you can easily connect to any of the machines shared folders and back them up over the network. As for going from one model of controller to another that I couldn’t tell you because all our mills and lathes have smooth g controls or smooth x on the 2 integrex machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFanboy View Post
    There are a number of ways you can backup programs with the smooth controllers we use either using a simple USB drive which I do every now and again or since all the machines are networked you can easily connect to any of the machines shared folders and back them up over the network. As for going from one model of controller to another that I couldn’t tell you because all our mills and lathes have smooth g controls or smooth x on the 2 integrex machines.
    I'm sorry, I must have missed a detail in your previous posts.

    You use Mazatrol for the Integrex?

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    I'm sorry, I must have missed a detail in your previous posts.

    You use Mazatrol for the Integrex?
    Yes we only use mazatrol in our machine shop. We don't do any simultaneous 5 axis work at all so really there isn't anything you can't program in mazatrol. We have not come across any part we manufacture that has had a need for any sort of cam software before and I can't see that changing anytime soon. I'll get a picture of a part we are making right now when I get back to work tomorrow if you like to show you how a part that looks complex is so simple to program using mazatrol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFanboy View Post
    Yes we only use mazatrol in our machine shop. We don't do any simultaneous 5 axis work at all so really there isn't anything you can't program in mazatrol. We have not come across any part we manufacture that has had a need for any sort of cam software before and I can't see that changing anytime soon. I'll get a picture of a part we are making right now when I get back to work tomorrow if you like to show you how a part that looks complex is so simple to program using mazatrol.
    I'd certainly be interested to see what you guys are doing with it.

    I have to say John Hart in Australia has done excellent job or promoting what the greater range of what an Integrex (B axis mill turn) can really do.

    Sometimes I get frustrated with demo applications that show stuff than can clearly be done on a 4th axis machine orthogonally. Nice to see that B axis actually be used from time to time.

    __________________________________________________ ______


    Weird side note/ partial OffT: on the integrex J series I believe the B axis head can only index at 5 degree increments. From an actual physical engineering and part design point of view I always thought that was weird. A lot of geometric angled relationships aren't even in whole degrees let alone increments of 5 degree. (Maybe I have misunderstood something there about the J series) [I thought it was tool(axis) indexing but seems to B axis ?].

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    I'll wait for the pictures, before I comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    I'll wait for the pictures, before I comment.
    It's kinda funny that some of the Mazak application engineers (that "Do" Integrex (B axis mill turn) almost make jokes about how far some of their clients have gone with Mazatrol to create really complex parts. [It's like give them a lego brick and they end up making lego-land.].

    Not sure one can define complex "manifolds" / compound curves along two axes or obviously complex 3d contours (per se).

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    Trying to design around clever combinations of turning and milling (5 axis positional*),for what we have to do (keep cycle time down to a minimum) rather than have a work piece gyrate for an entire day on a 5th axis vertical in combination with separate turning and boring operations + other fixtures and setups. [We'd always stay with the CAD/CAM method and workflow, but mazatrol seems very attractive for quick and dirty prototyping too, that's not too shabby at all.]. Presumably the machine "knows" what Mazatrol is going on about and hence should have decent correspondence to the intended part vs. what can happen in a CAD/CAM workflow ?


    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________

    * I have to be honest I'm not clear on 3+2 and 4+1 vs sim 5 for fine chamfering along more complex edges. I've seen a lot of cases where 4+1 seems to do the job and is it the case sim 5 is needed for chamfering along compound curves ? Reason why I mention that is believe on the inetgrex J (positional system) that they have chamfering routines on the control that are a smidge more than what one might expect (I'm wondering nearly 4+1) kind of thing.

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    I think that if you have a Mazak Lathe of any flavor, you should learn to be proficient in Mazatrol. Regardless if you have a CAM package or not. There are many applications where it would have been much faster to just do it in Mazatrol. One example is turning and milling soft jaws. Something you do all the time, but would be a waste of time to do any other way.

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    Not sure how clear the milling toolpath is on the floor but to mill all the material away between those 4 triangle sections only takes 10 lines as shown in the 2nd picture. The bores are circle milled then microbored with a big kaiser microbore and the m30 holes are thread milled. The gear cutting is done separate in our gear cutting area since we havenít started gear skiving yet.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 89228fb5-0c19-442b-905b-4451c38de058.jpg   3b3df2fe-7824-49e4-aa03-107b9cea8c71.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFanboy View Post
    Not sure how clear the milling toolpath is on the floor but to mill all the material away between those 4 triangle sections only takes 10 lines as shown in the 2nd picture. The bores are circle milled then microbored with a big kaiser microbore and the m30 holes are thread milled. The gear cutting is done separate in our gear cutting area since we haven’t started gear skiving yet.
    VERY nice !


    Thanks for sharing.

    Not to turn this into an "Advert" for MAZAK … I think at IMTS this year they are showing for the first time an Integrex I-200 AG.. the AG stands (I believe) for Advanced Gear (processing).

    I'm not sure if the AG "bit" is all on the control or if there is something different / specially about the machine physically.

    The pre-show "Teaser" is that with the AG that gear pairs and coupled gear assemblies can be manufactured much more accurately as they "Match"... (in one go kind-of. That's something I'm very interested in/ relevant to what we need.

    They kinda make out maybe one does not need special gear skiving machines etc. [I don't know of that's true or not...] AND I have no idea what the mated gear tolerance improvement would be for gear/related part sets manufactured in that way ? OVER regular gear skiving etc. using randomly interchangeable parts methodology.


    Kinda makes sense but only have a vague sense of it without seeing it I can't say what's what ?


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

    @HDFanboy was wondering if it's a Software related upgrade (which may or may not be problematic), whether that might be relevant to the kind of work your outfit is doing.


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________


    Ten lines of "code" pretty impressive!

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    Iíll try to get a short video of the process either late this afternoon or early tomorrow since op1 needs to be done first. Itís pretty cool to watch the 50mm Oscar high feed mill cutting at 5mm feed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFanboy View Post
    Not sure how clear the milling toolpath is on the floor but to mill all the material away between those 4 triangle sections only takes 10 lines as shown in the 2nd picture.
    Not wanting to belittle your work....

    I thought we were going to see something complex.

    When we got training on the Integrex that I was involved with, the Mazatrol side could have worked for the turning we did, but the apps guy quickly pointed to the EIA programming manual when he saw the mill work to be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    VERY nice !


    Thanks for sharing.

    Not to turn this into an "Advert" for MAZAK … I think at IMTS this year they are showing for the first time an Integrex I-200 AG.. the AG stands (I believe) for Advanced Gear (processing).

    I'm not sure if the AG "bit" is all on the control or if there is something different / specially about the machine physically.

    The pre-show "Teaser" is that with the AG that gear pairs and coupled gear assemblies can be manufactured much more accurately as they "Match"... (in one go kind-of. That's something I'm very interested in/ relevant to what we need.

    They kinda make out maybe one does not need special gear skiving machines etc. [I don't know of that's true or not...] AND I have no idea what the mated gear tolerance improvement would be for gear/related part sets manufactured in that way ? OVER regular gear skiving etc. using randomly interchangeable parts methodology.


    Kinda makes sense but only have a vague sense of it without seeing it I can't say what's what ?


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

    @HDFanboy was wondering if it's a Software related upgrade (which may or may not be problematic), whether that might be relevant to the kind of work your outfit is doing.


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________


    Ten lines of "code" pretty impressive!
    I would bet two things with the AG machine. More torque at lower speeds, and more accurate rotary encoders, likely the most important things when cutting accurate gears. Geometric accuracy would have to be pretty good as well. I wonder if they are targeting spiral bevel and hypoid gears. AFIAK those are the most critical to be made in pairs. A shop I used to deal with occasionally while in school specialized in small bevel gears. They used old gleason machines from the 40's. They would cut them, then lap them in pairs and provide the offset info with each pair. Those old machines were fascinating mechanical marvels, and still had deadly accurate spindles. I was always amazed how compact those machines were, yet what they were capable of was amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Not wanting to belittle your work....

    I thought we were going to see something complex.

    When we got training on the Integrex that I was involved with, the Mazatrol side could have worked for the turning we did, but the apps guy quickly pointed to the EIA programming manual when he saw the mill work to be done.
    No offense taken. I have said a couple times the work we do is quite simple to do with mazatrol. The pictures I posted were more to show how such a simple milling unit can create a pretty complex toolpath considering how short it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFanboy View Post
    Not sure how clear the milling toolpath is on the floor but to mill all the material away between those 4 triangle sections only takes 10 lines as shown in the 2nd picture. The bores are circle milled then microbored with a big kaiser microbore and the m30 holes are thread milled. The gear cutting is done separate in our gear cutting area since we haven’t started gear skiving yet.
    Don't take this the wrong way, because if I had the money, I would have an Integrex for a living room design motif. But I don't see anything in the picture that requires the B-Axis. I see YXZC. So a person pays a very pretty premium for the B, while YC Lathes are holding down the carpet at Ebay, because of overflow. And as a result are considerably cheaper. Lets say 2010 and later, just talking Mazaks here. A bargain Integrex is .25M and QT250 MS-II is 100k. That is a LOT of money to not be utilized. Ive used Mazatrol, but not on an Integrex', Ive used IGF but not on a Multus.

    But really my curiosity wasn't in the investment. I wanted a practical opinion on Mazatrol's handling of B-Axis work. We have IGF for the 3 Axis Lathes, it gets used on and off. Some guys like it and some don't, so whatever gets good parts off, we don't really count beans here, unless they are spilling out onto the floor. But for the Multus forget about it, didn't even look, didn't even ask, and the Rep. didn't even think to Pitch it for that Machine.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by huskermcdoogle View Post
    I would bet two things with the AG machine. More torque at lower speeds, and more accurate rotary encoders, likely the most important things when cutting accurate gears. Geometric accuracy would have to be pretty good as well. I wonder if they are targeting spiral bevel and hypoid gears. AFIAK those are the most critical to be made in pairs. A shop I used to deal with occasionally while in school specialized in small bevel gears. They used old gleason machines from the 40's. They would cut them, then lap them in pairs and provide the offset info with each pair. Those old machines were fascinating mechanical marvels, and still had deadly accurate spindles. I was always amazed how compact those machines were, yet what they were capable of was amazing.
    That would be awesome and yeah you could be right, direct rotary (annular) ring type encoder around the C-axis/ spindle and higher low end torque.

    I wonder what they consider as "Finished gears" in terms of process.

    You may be right about the hypoid and spiral bevel as I thought the integrex could already do simple gear work/routines for? And right about those types of gears being made in pairs (by necessity).


    Good sleuthing / dot joining (@huskerMcdoogle) as that seems to fit their obscure "teaser" paragraphs before they pull the dust-sheet off at IMTS. Hopefully that option is not like $100K+ "Addon" .


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


    A few youtube vids wandered into my "bubble" with those old gear making machines … Impressive... and really clever. I'd have to hunt down how you lap paired hypoid gears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I'd have to hunt down how you lap paired hypoid gears.
    It's basically just a machine that mimics the setup they will be used in, with HP bearings, and it just runs them against each other. The specifics of that I don't know much about, but I have seen it being done every time I was over there. IIRC, they go from the cutting machine right into the lapping machine, lapped in sets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxergary View Post
    95% tool steel. Mostly dynamic milling with MasterCam.

    We want to switch to a conversational control, as I am done teaching basic G code.

    Any help on which of these machines conversational programming would be best suited for daily simple ops. Facing, simple shapes, drill/tap. circular interp.

    Thanks in advance,
    Personally I think buying a machine based on how good the conversational side is, isn't the way to go. It seems like you're putting a band-aid on the problem.
    An easy way is to have macros that the operator can change simple variables of.
    The cheapest route would be to get Fusion 360 and have these youngsters go at it, they'll pick it up fast because it's all over the internet.
    IMO the best way to go is to hire someone to do the programming for this kind of stuff if you
    don't have the time for that extra workload.

    That said, the Okuma conversational isn't terrible.It's not Mastercam but it will do basic stuff rather easily and quickly. I can't speak for Mazak or other brands though,but I'm sure it's on par.

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    I am intimately familiar with Mazatrol on mills and lathes. I have done some work with Mori CAPPS. Mori conversational absolutely sucks when compared to Mazatrol. No experience with Doosan.

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    I havenít read all the replies. But I am familiar with Capps. 1) donít believe anything the salesman claims it will do or their ďappsĒ guy until you actually put your hands on it and do it. 2) itís not anywhere near what Iíd expect conversational to be doing by now despite the slick dress they put on it 3) it will likely handle your simple fixturing needs 4) use Renishaw macros and not mori if running a toolsetter (not convo related but still, Moriís is ass backwards and half-assed).

    I hear better things about Mazak conversational but havenít really had my hands on it.

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    Pulled the trigger on a new Mazak 530C today. Lots of options added, but the big one is the 48 tool changer. 15k spindle. Chip converyor, 230 psi thru spindle coolant, air through also,expanded memory. Dual probe with inspection. Some other things I cant recall. Looking forward to loading that changer up with 40 tools that we use all the time. I think we can save 5 hours a week on this machine, by simply not having to load and unload tools all the time, along with the awesome chip conveyor with augers. Our haas machines just let the chips pile up. Unfortunately, it comes with a huge price tag. We have the work for it though.


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