mill turn thoughts??

oldmansimek · Jan 24, 2018

My company is looking to buy a new mill turn probably a 300 size machine, I am looking for you guys who have one or work on one. We do a lot of very tight tolerance work medical and aerospace etc. currently our choices include Nakamura Tome, Mori Seiki, Okuma and WFL. Any opinions and advice are appreciated bad or good, machine needs to hold tenths. Mainly looking for input on how service is, parts available, tech support, machine strength, control (user friendly?). Thanks

brian.pallas · Jan 24, 2018

Do you need angled live tools frequently, or 5 axis milling?
Tight tolerance milling, turning, or both?
Production runs, onesey-twosey, or a mix?
Are you saying a 300mm chuck size?

litlerob1 · Jan 24, 2018

Define "Mill/Turn", as Brian said; do you need a B axis or a Lathe with live tools? Who is WFL?

R

EDIT just looked up WFL, the small ones are not. So I'm guessing the 300 (10.5") size is some ambiguous value CM or something.

Kaszub · Jan 24, 2018

oldmansimek said:
My company is looking to buy a new mill turn probably a 300 size machine, I am looking for you guys who have one or work on one. We do a lot of very tight tolerance work medical and aerospace etc. currently our choices include Nakamura Tome, Mori Seiki, Okuma and WFL. Any opinions and advice are appreciated bad or good, machine needs to hold tenths. Mainly looking for input on how service is, parts available, tech support, machine strength, control (user friendly?). Thanks

Wow ....if you already have WFL and Nakamura i would probably not look anywhere else.....
on another hand you could look into Index they make some cool stuff not sure about service tho.

oldmansimek · Jan 25, 2018

Sorry I was not going to go into what machine needs are, just wanted your guys opinions on the machines and there support. But here are the basics, we are looking at a two spindle long bed machine with a B-axis 10 inch chucks, 300 is the size that most of these machines are called such as nakamura ntrx 300 or multis b300. WFL is probably a dream machine but for those who don't know they are the best of the best.

Panza · Jan 25, 2018

Index has some B-axis machines with two heads. Would probably be worth it if you need a lot of advanced back-side work.

Jashley73 · Jan 25, 2018

Guys the "300 size" he's referring to... B-axis mill-turns are typically classified by their Y-axis travel - in this case, 300mm...

Nakamura would be an excellent choice for tight tolerance medical/aero work. Our local Nak dealer supplies a lot of these machines specifically for the medical industry.

I didn't know WFL made "small" machines in that range.

The Mori "NT" line of machines built with the "DCG" construction - basically box-on-box frame, and dual ball screws wherever possible - are built like the proverbial brick outhouse... I don't know if they still make that line machines though. They would certainly be worth a look if you're doing a lot of heavy milling/turning.

litlerob1 · Jan 25, 2018

@ OP a 10" Chuck is the far end of the spectrum from what it seems you are looking for, meaning a 10" Chuck is tiny. The bigger WFL machines are 2000mm swing machines.

Sorry I was not going to go into what machine needs are,

Sorta like going to Youtube and searching "video".

As far as Service goes, it's local information not across the board. Of the machines you listed, Okuma is on top for me, you said "new" so Deckel Mori gets shuffled to the bottom. Nak is in the middle, and I cannot speak for WFL, but the control looks proprietary, so that would be a turn off for me.

Guys the "300 size" he's referring to... B-axis mill-turns are typically classified by their Y-axis travel - in this case, 300mm...

Pretty sure he means Chuck size, but I'm not sure he knows what he is asking, not being rude.

R

TKassoc · Jan 25, 2018

WFL is on the list but not the Willemin-Macodel 528S :confused:

cameraman · Jan 25, 2018

Methods MT

300 mm I think maybe OP could be referring to this Nakamura

NTRX-3 - Methods Machine Tools

NTRX-300

I did look into this machine and was out of budget for me... well into the $450k range (if memory serves me right) I think the B-axis mill turn thing is a "New" 'thing" for Nakamura but their multispidle and multi tasking machines are almost legendary in the medical industry for cranking out parts uninterrupted for years and years.

Personally I'm really impressed with Methods Machine Tool that carry the Nakamura's ... [I would think that would be a good combination of service support and machine (IF) they are in your area].

The control is a bit more custom [Custom layer on the Fanuc 31i-A5 5-axis control], I.e. Nakamura seem to be mindful that folks that want to connect with these machines may be newb's to "Mill turn B axis" and have built in a lot crash protection functions (I can't remember what they call it like pillow or nurse function/ crash function/protection/crash bag or something lol) . The interface for the control looks really good to my eye, but on the other hand it is quite unique (spare parts problems in the future?).

litlerob1 · Jan 25, 2018

I'm not arguing Erik, buuuut look here;;

Multus B 300 with 10" Chuck stupid IMHO

And your link does show 10" Y travel so who knows, without the OP clarifying?

cameraman · Jan 25, 2018

litlerob1 said:
I'm not arguing Erik, buuuut look here;;

Multus B 300 with 10" Chuck stupid IMHO

And your link does show 10" Y travel so who knows, without the OP clarifying?

That machine is a beast and hats off to you for knowing that beasty inside and out and probably made many many excellent parts and chips. The C axis on the machine is very very accurate.

I nearly pulled the trigger on a second hand Multus but lost my "Bottle"/ chickened out. I think normally those are closer to $600K new. Personally (I think) that machine really needs an "old salt/old hand/expert" to get the best out of it, or that's a polite way of saying newcomers/newbs may take them a long time to get the best out of the machine/get tangled up/crash the machine a lot (maybe).

I was wondering what Op's budget and application was?

litlerob1 · Jan 25, 2018

cameraman said:
That machine is a beast and hats off to you for knowing that beasty inside and out and probably made many many excellent parts and chips. The C axis on the machine is very very accurate.

I nearly pulled the trigger on a second hand Multus but lost my "Bottle"/ chickened out. I think normally those are closer to $600K new. Personally (I think) that machine really needs an "old salt/old hand/expert" to get the best out of it, or that's a polite way of saying newcomers/newbs may take them a long time to get the best out of the machine/get tangled up/crash the machine a lot (maybe).

I was wondering what Op's budget and application was?

If you use OSP the way it's designed (which means hours and hours) it's the best Control out there, hands down, not even worth discussing. Any B-Axis machine is a lot to navigate, particularly when you aren't Stepping and Indexing, when everything is running all at once, it's glamorous to say it quietly.

"Crashes" are not allowed. If a person might crash it, they just don't learn on it. They learn on the NZ or the NL's (Mori not Deckel).

You can program the C to .001º but really the repeatability on a part is probably more like .01º, less than you would think right? All depending on Rotational direction, Feeding, Indexing and tool approach, just like anything else.

R

oldmansimek · Jan 25, 2018

We currently have a multus b400, ok machine not very durable, service is good we have over 10 of there machines of different generations we are looking at the b300 however the guy running it is not very tall and the spindle is not very accessible. Nakamura has been making mill turn machines for a while they used to make one with a lower turret but not enough demand I guess, however most of these machines are 10" chuck with optional big bore and 12" the NTRX300L is my current choice I have heard nothing but good things and I have been dealing with Methods for a very long time.
Thank you guys for mentioning Index I forgot about them, looks like they have some nice options. We have not been hearing great things about Mori and there newer equipment.
WFL does make this sized machine it is called the M30.

Just to help clarify yes I know what I am looking for, we have mostly been a Mazak and Okuma shop and would like to look elsewhere and we are really looking for your input on the service and quality side. As for our budget it really depends on what options we need but most of these machines are in the range.

cameraman · Jan 26, 2018

oldmansimek said:
My company is looking to buy a new mill turn probably a 300 size machine, I am looking for you guys who have one or work on one. We do a lot of very tight tolerance work medical and aerospace etc. currently our choices include Nakamura Tome, Mori Seiki, Okuma and WFL. Any opinions and advice are appreciated bad or good, machine needs to hold tenths. Mainly looking for input on how service is, parts available, tech support, machine strength, control (user friendly?). Thanks

Sorry to bring up the orange elephant/whale in the room.

So I'm guessing maybe you guys have MAZAK VARIAXIS machines (for large 5 axis aerospace components?) (Maybe?)

Wondering why Mazak's 5 axis mill-turn offerings are a bit of a "Turn-off"/no-go... For you guys?

Horses for courses of course. Not saying you should plump for a Mazak (Mill-turn/Integrex-like machine) just interested why you guys decided against it.

Ta.

The Nakamura machine has box ways right?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@Oldmansimek do you guys ever talk about getting into additive manufacturing, given that you are in aerospace/medical, wondered if any of the mill turn-machines with AM capability had been "Kicked about"? Or are you guys already doing stuff like that?

oldmansimek · Jan 26, 2018

Yes on the boxed ways.

As for Mazak, we just have not been very happy with them. We have machines from them dating back to the late 80's to only a few years old and it is really apparent going year to year how there quality and durability has dropped, not to mention that Mazak northeast has lost an incredible amount of service and sales people to the point of being hard to get ahold of anyone. I have been to there facility in Kentucky several times and they have some incredible machines but I would not put them up there with Nakamura and the others we are looking at.

mkd · Jan 26, 2018

oldmansimek said:
My company is looking to buy a new mill turn probably a 300 size machine, I am looking for you guys who have one or work on one. We do a lot of very tight tolerance work medical and aerospace etc. currently our choices include Nakamura Tome, Mori Seiki, Okuma and WFL. Any opinions and advice are appreciated bad or good, machine needs to hold tenths. Mainly looking for input on how service is, parts available, tech support, machine strength, control (user friendly?). Thanks

Jashley73 said:
Guys the "300 size" he's referring to... B-axis mill-turns are typically classified by their Y-axis travel - in this case, 300mm...

Nakamura would be an excellent choice for tight tolerance medical/aero work. Our local Nak dealer supplies a lot of these machines specifically for the medical industry.

I didn't know WFL made "small" machines in that range.

The Mori "NT" line of machines built with the "DCG" construction - basically box-on-box frame, and dual ball screws wherever possible - are built like the proverbial brick outhouse... I don't know if they still make that line machines though. They would certainly be worth a look if you're doing a lot of heavy milling/turning.

opinions vary but i have a highly respected colleague that has such Nakamura(s) and it's the only one that loses it's shit after lunch, with temperature fluctuation. My 18 year old Mactun has held tenths with 25° temp change without so much as an offset. (linear scale on X).
I've also known of a shop in 1996 that got a Nak twin turret/ live tool that shipped with considerable bugs. To me, being a little snobbish, there is a reason it's somewhat of an obscure brand.

For me Okuma (for support reasons; read; 18 yo machine, hello), followed by the Mori NT and be done. Uf you want more durability than your B300 (shitty wedge Y axis and B axis design stolen from mazak lol) step up to the Awesome U3000. :bowdown:

scratch WFL off the list. lol :nutter:

. Those are 1) huge. 2) boutique/custom ordered with leadtime and price to match.

oldmansimek · Jan 26, 2018

MKD thanks that's the type of info I am looking for, we were supposed to get a macturn when we got our multus but something happened still not sure.

cameraman · Jan 26, 2018

mkd said:
opinions vary but i have a highly respected colleague that has such Nakamura(s) and it's the only one that loses it's shit after lunch, with temperature fluctuation. My 18 year old Mactun has held tenths with 25° temp change without so much as an offset. (linear scale on X).
I've also known of a shop in 1996 that got a Nak twin turret/ live tool that shipped with considerable bugs. To me, being a little snobbish, there is a reason it's somewhat of an obscure brand.

For me Okuma (for support reasons; read; 18 yo machine, hello), followed by the Mori NT and be done. Uf you want more durability than your B300 (shitty wedge Y axis and B axis design stolen from mazak lol) step up to the Awesome U3000.

scratch WFL off the list. lol. Those are 1) huge. 2) boutique/custom ordered with leadtime and price to match.

So the U3000 is an integrex I-200 "Knock off" but done better? lol.

But smeriously ...

Any idea what the base price on a U3000 is?

Serious inquiry/question.

Ta.

mkd · Jan 26, 2018

cameraman said:
So the U3000 is an integrex I-200 "Knock off" but done better? lol.

But smeriously ...

Any idea what the base price on a U3000 is?

Serious inquiry/question.

Ta.

I was comparing a b300 head with the original Integrex head (you know the odd two sided support)
I do see the similairities between the I-200 and Okuma U series. damn similar. F- Mazak :stirthepot:

lol.

I've heard a fully loaded U4000 is right around US 1 million. it's a beast.

mill turn thoughts??

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