milling chuck VS sidelock - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 90
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    ALAND ISLANDS
    Posts
    201
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    38
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    ... [clip]

    Frank, you’re trying to tell me that runout doesnt matter for tool life? I wouldnt expect that response from someone who makes tool holders! Side locks are known to have the worst runout spec of all holders, and yes they work splendid for roughing but that is it, they suck ass for anything else (except those massive quad drills I mentioned, which is arguably a roughing op).

    Your tool life will be better with a milling chuck. You can also use that same tool in the milling chuck and get amazing finishes, not as good with side lock. Yes they are cheap but you’ll probably spend more on tooling over time because your tool life will be less.

    Everyone is going to buy what works for them and side locks have a place but I’m just not a big user of them for the reasons I stated.

    Edit: another disadvantage of sidelock is lack of balance...but that does t really matter too much with lower speed spindles. I like to push the shrink fit all day long because for us it offers the most features for a cheap price...most Shrink holders are not crazy pricey
    This may be your experience, but a few of your statements here are not entirely true.

    Frank isn't saying that runout doesn't matter for tool life -- he's saying it's much more complicated than that. Toolholder rigidity and gauge length also matter for tool life, and side-locks tend to win on both of those fronts. What Frank is saying (I think) is that when some manufacturers say that "for every tenth you get 10% better tool life", they're telling a half-truth. All other factors being equal, it will improve your tool life. But if you're sacrificing something to get that slightly better runout (gauge length, harmonics, etc.) then you may not see those benefits and the result may actually be worse.

    Additionally: "Side locks are known to have the worst runout spec of all holders." They are thought to have the worst runout spec, but high quality side locks have runout comparable to collet chucks. Not milling chucks or hydraulics, maybe, but absolutely sufficient for roughing applications.

    Regarding balance: Good holders are balanced with the set screw and flat taken into account. I run a MariTool side-lock at 16k all day. The cutter lasts until I make a mistake (cutting aluminum, obviously). I've tried numerous other holders and none sound as good as the side-lock. If there's imbalance, it's not reflected in the cut, the tool life, the taper (you'd expect undesirable wear patterns), and it's certainly not audible.

    ---

    Absolutely not discounting your personal experience here -- I believe that everything you said above has indeed been your experience. But I don't believe it is universally applicable and I think some of your conclusions may be based on (widely-held) assumptions that are not actually true.

    Edit: You mentioned versatility and longer stick out, and you're absolutely right that milling chucks / shrink win on those fronts.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    3,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1389
    Likes (Received)
    1511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    Side locks are known to have the worst runout spec of all holders
    Compared to ER collets my indicator disagrees with you. Same diameter tools measured on the shank, .0002"-.0003" tir for the collets, .0002"-.0004" for the side locks. All tools torqued to maximum tightness with torque wrenches.

    One thing no one is mentioning is the work involved in changing tools. Here side locks really shine. There is damn little to do between removing the old tool and inserting the new one, unlike all the other methods of holding a tool.

    Oh, and what about getting coolant to the stub end mill! Collet nuts and milling chucks really get in the way IME.

  3. Likes Bobw, eaglemike, Chris59 liked this post
  4. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    1,048
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    290
    Likes (Received)
    633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Has anyone made a milling chuck with a shorter gage length?
    Back in the day, Nikken offered their 3/4" BT30 mill chucks (mechanical shrink) in 2.5" (65mm) or 3" (75mm) gage length. The 65mm was the shortest around and I would use them and recommend them when the extra performance was needed. Then one day they discontinued the 65. Go figure.
    I do agree that sidelocks have their place and use/recommend them frequently especially for roughing or semi-roughing. One thing that gets me though is when I see someone holding a spot drill or small drill in a sidelock. An emergency situation ok, but not in production. It frustrates me when tooling reps, with exceptions (Frank Mari...), come in and always want to push their most costly tools when it should be a blend for the range of applications IMO.

  5. Likes fmari --MariTool-, snapatap liked this post
  6. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,267
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    247
    Likes (Received)
    2189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmadness View Post
    I have always wondered why milling chucks need such a long gauge length, like why can’t they be made with 2.5” or less?

    To be honest nowadays I only run sidelock holders with my indexable spot drills and also indexable drills and quad drills. They work very well for that purpose.


    Frank, you’re trying to tell me that runout doesnt matter for tool life? I wouldnt expect that response from someone who makes tool holders! Side locks are known to have the worst runout spec of all holders, and yes they work splendid for roughing but that is it, they suck ass for anything else (except those massive quad drills I mentioned, which is arguably a roughing op).

    Your tool life will be better with a milling chuck. You can also use that same tool in the milling chuck and get amazing finishes, not as good with side lock. Yes they are cheap but you’ll probably spend more on tooling over time because your tool life will be less.

    Everyone is going to buy what works for them and side locks have a place but I’m just not a big user of them for the reasons I stated.

    Edit: another disadvantage of sidelock is lack of balance...but that does t really matter too much with lower speed spindles. I like to push the shrink fit all day long because for us it offers the most features for a cheap price...most Shrink holders are not crazy pricey

    Just because I make tool holders doesn't mean I can't be honest and share my experiences as a machinist for 30+ years. It is not so cut and dry that a perfectly concentric tool will give you better tool life than a tool with runout.

    A 3/4 end mill in a 3.5" gage length tool holder with .0001 runout but is chattering because the machine can't handle it will not last as long as a 1-3/4 gage length side lock with .0004 runout.

    Lets be clear, most machinists don't even check there drawbar pressure. Many are trying to run these long milling chucks and 1" endmills with s 3" flute length with 700 lbs drawbar force!! How do you think thats going to turn out?

    runout, dampening, balance, spindle rigidity, table rigidity, chip evacuation, proper lubrication, etc etc affect tool life. Doesn't sound so good nor make a good selling tag line. But is the truth.

    metalmadness,

    I think the shortest milling chuck i've seen is 2-3/4 gage length. For the life of me I can't remember who makes it. I think the rotating collar that is responsible for elastically compressing the outer sleeve has to be a certain distance away from the larger diameter flange that will not elastically deform at the same rate as the smaller diameter nose.

  7. Likes mutiny liked this post
  8. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,267
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    247
    Likes (Received)
    2189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mutiny View Post
    So when is the MariTool line of hydraulics coming out...?
    Actually, soon. 3 years of research and dozens of samples we teamed up with a certain manufacturer and we have exclusive rights in North America. They have some unique features and brazing technology that solve "leak down" that some hydraulics have problems with.

  9. Likes mhajicek, Mtndew, mountie liked this post
  10. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    ALAND ISLANDS
    Posts
    201
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    38
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Actually, soon. 3 years of research and dozens of samples we teamed up with a certain manufacturer and we have exclusive rights in North America. They have some unique features and brazing technology that solve "leak down" that some hydraulics have problems with.
    Sounds awesome! How soon is soon? We have a 120T HMC coming in late June or early July, planning to tool up largely with your stuff. All Cat40 Dual Contact. Was planning to buy about a half-dozen hydraulics for finishing from Schunk (local to me and good but expensive) or YG-1 (better value), but I'd be happy to buy it all from you...

  11. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,267
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    247
    Likes (Received)
    2189

    Default

    We have BT30 and BT30 dual contact coming out first. CAT40 and CAT40 dual contact next. What are you looking for? 1/2" hydraulic or 3/4 or 1".

  12. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Country
    ALAND ISLANDS
    Posts
    201
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    38
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Default

    Perfect! Sign me up for BT30 Dual Contact as well for our Speedio.

    Probably looking for 1" on at least 1 of them to be able to run a particular 16mm finishing tool but otherwise 3/4".

  13. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Posts
    5,481
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1058
    Likes (Received)
    2391

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Back in the day, Nikken offered their 3/4" BT30 mill chucks (mechanical shrink) in 2.5" (65mm) or 3" (75mm) gage length. The 65mm was the shortest around and I would use them and recommend them when the extra performance was needed. Then one day they discontinued the 65. Go figure.
    I do agree that sidelocks have their place and use/recommend them frequently especially for roughing or semi-roughing. One thing that gets me though is when I see someone holding a spot drill or small drill in a sidelock. An emergency situation ok, but not in production. It frustrates me when tooling reps, with exceptions (Frank Mari...), come in and always want to push their most costly tools when it should be a blend for the range of applications IMO.
    What's the issue with that?

  14. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,896
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5567
    Likes (Received)
    3757

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    What's the issue with that?
    It's like holding an end mill in a drill chuck, you just don't do it.

  15. Likes BROTHERFRANK liked this post
  16. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,267
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    247
    Likes (Received)
    2189

    Default

    Most spotting drills (unless carbide) and drill shanks have slightly undersized shanks. So if you use a side lock holder you are going to get some nasty run out.

  17. Likes Cole2534, mountie, Mike1974 liked this post
  18. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Posts
    5,481
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1058
    Likes (Received)
    2391

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Most spotting drills (unless carbide) and drill shanks have slightly undersized shanks. So if you use a side lock holder you are going to get some nasty run out.
    Ah, that makes sense!

  19. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Hatch, NM Chile capital of the WORLD
    Posts
    9,654
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    16349
    Likes (Received)
    11761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Most spotting drills (unless carbide) and drill shanks have slightly undersized shanks. So if you use a side lock holder you are going to get some nasty run out.
    My thoughts on that. I've had a 3/8" 8" long spotter for years.. It only gets pulled
    out when it is absolutely necessary.. Obviously.

    Always run it in a set screw holder.. And here is why. When you have a huge amount of stickout
    like that.. If you have a quality holder where the taper and bore are actually in a line,
    doesn't matter how far you stick out, you're going to get very little run out. Stuff it in,
    tighten the screw and go to town. If its running out a thou.. BFD. Either its really short
    and stiff, or I'm taking my time because its an expensive pain in the ass.

    With a collet.. There are so many places to add an error. Collet perfectly clean, inside and out.
    Collet nut perfectly clean and properly lubricated. Threads, and taper in the nut, is there any
    error there. Is it tightened down to the perfect proper spec.

    There are just SOOO many things fitting together and any little error or dirt can throw you
    out. Set screw holder, basically self cleaning when you stick the tool in, tighten the screw
    and go. You know where its going to be every single time, no muss, no fuss.

    And set screw holders are cheap, and I find them to be more rigid than a collet. They
    can be nice and short.

    But Run Out!!!!! If you lose 10% of tool life for every .0001" you are out, does that mean
    your tool just explodes if its out a thou? And how far are you off on a set screw holder?
    A couple of tenths? if that?

    I just measured that long 3/8, its about 3 tenths under.. I've had that tool for 12 years.
    The other spotters, the worst one was less than a thou.. I'm comfortable using that in
    a set screw holder.. The horrible shitty point geometry on a spotter is probably worse
    than having run out.

    Edit: I've run that long spotter in a Maritool holder pretty much every time, and she's never
    had a problem.

  20. Likes Cole2534, triumph406 liked this post
  21. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,267
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    247
    Likes (Received)
    2189

    Default

    Bobw,
    If it is working don't change it. I always like to follow the KISS rule. Keep It Simple Stupid.

  22. Likes Bobw, Cole2534 liked this post
  23. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Jupiter, Florida
    Posts
    273
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    342
    Likes (Received)
    28

    Default

    I was under the impression that side lock tool holders were the worst also. Went for years like that. We had a cheap bunch that we originally got for our Haas VF2ss. Then when it came time to tool up another machine I requested another brand (and woohoo! they said yes). I was still at this point getting "high precision" collets and spending time matching them up to certain holders and rotating collets to try to minimize runout. Could get .0001 or .0002 after some trial and error. Used this only on small end mills.
    Another machinist here asked for extra side lock holders and claimed they were better. I went back to the literature and didn't believe him. When the holders came in I tested them.
    Crap. He was right. .0001 or less! right out of the box.
    I hate being shown wrong but hate being wrong even more.
    Quality side lock is the way we go now.

  24. Likes BROTHERFRANK, Bobw, mutiny, Eric U, snapatap liked this post
  25. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Alabama
    Posts
    366
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    151
    Likes (Received)
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snapatap View Post
    My work has a new machining center on the way (Doosan VCF850LSR BBT40 spindle) and i'm working on a list of tooling i want. Most of our machining is in steel with 16-32mm tipped endmills and high feed mills, currently held in sidelocks in our existing mills. Will we see a improvement in performance/tool life by holding them in a milling chuck rather than a sidelock? The sales spiels say i will but i would like some feedback from people that actually use the tools rather than sell them. thanks in advance.
    I prefer the rego-fix collet system over anything. I do not like the hydro chucks only because of the operator maintenance needed. We can't even get operators to clean spindles. If you do high rpm stuff they are great. But, for low rpm stuff (v4500 rpm) the sidelocks will do just fine.
    Here is the regofix power grip system I prefer:
    powRgrip | REGO-FIX

  26. Likes snapatap liked this post
  27. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,267
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    247
    Likes (Received)
    2189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CORONA VIRUS View Post
    I do not like the hydro chucks only because of the operator maintenance needed. We can't even get operators to clean spindles. If you do high rpm stuff they are great. But, for low rpm stuff (v4500 rpm) the sidelocks will do just fine.
    What kind on maintenance for the hydraulics are you talking about?

  28. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hillsboro, New Hampshire
    Posts
    12,950
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2938
    Likes (Received)
    8932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CORONA VIRUS View Post
    I prefer the rego-fix collet system over anything. I do not like the hydro chucks only because of the operator maintenance needed. We can't even get operators to clean spindles. If you do high rpm stuff they are great. But, for low rpm stuff (v4500 rpm) the sidelocks will do just fine.
    I've used the Rego-Fix, and your comment about lazy operators confuses me. R-F requires "perfect" cleanliness of the toolholder and compression collets before they go into the clamping machine, so I can't see them helping out in that aspect.

    Lovely (if expensive) system otherwise, with $$$$$ available I'd tool up with them again.

  29. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Alabama
    Posts
    366
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    151
    Likes (Received)
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    What kind on maintenance for the hydraulics are you talking about?
    Cleaning. Chips an grit are devastating to hydro holders.

  30. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Alabama
    Posts
    366
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    151
    Likes (Received)
    104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    I've used the Rego-Fix, and your comment about lazy operators confuses me. R-F requires "perfect" cleanliness of the toolholder and compression collets before they go into the clamping machine, so I can't see them helping out in that aspect.

    Lovely (if expensive) system otherwise, with $$$$$ available I'd tool up with them again.
    Yeah. These are easier to clean than the hydra holders.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •