DMG Mori ALX?

Anyone have one, or seen one in the flesh? Thoughts, opinions?

My parts fit in the work envelope and it's awfully compact for what you get -- I'd be looking at the simple 2-axis configuration. Looks great on paper but Mori stuff usually does....

trochoidalpath said:

Anyone have one, or seen one in the flesh? Thoughts, opinions?

My parts fit in the work envelope and it's awfully compact for what you get -- I'd be looking at the simple 2-axis configuration. Looks great on paper but Mori stuff usually does....

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COMPACTline with Mitsubishi

If the same people whom wrote the text on this page, built the machine. I would look elsewhere.

Have you considered Takisawa? Accurate, reliable and rigid. What specifications do you need?

GENERALDISARRAY said:

COMPACTline with Mitsubishi

If the same people whom wrote the text on this page, built the machine. I would look elsewhere.

Click to expand...

That sort of operator's panel is not uncommon on high-volume production machines. Toyoda does this a lot on small machines - Roll up a Fanuc control interface, and stuff it behind a custom HMI screen that's tailored to the everyday functions of the plant's machine operators. The "Real Control" is accessible in the background.

It sounds like Mori/Mits have just made it easier to pick what's seen on the front-page of the HMI screen.


If that's the kind of control that's fitted to that machine, then it would stand to reason that the Iron behind the control is meant to run & run & run in a production environment. Good news if you have a lot of low-mix, high-volume production to run.

Bad news - That control will most likely NOT be very friendly for setup, and day to day use in a high-mix, low volume job shop...

Jashley73 said:

That sort of operator's panel is not uncommon on high-volume production machines. Toyoda does this a lot on small machines - Roll up a Fanuc control interface, and stuff it behind a custom HMI screen that's tailored to the everyday functions of the plant's machine operators. The "Real Control" is accessible in the background.

It sounds like Mori/Mits have just made it easier to pick what's seen on the front-page of the HMI screen.


If that's the kind of control that's fitted to that machine, then it would stand to reason that the Iron behind the control is meant to run & run & run in a production environment. Good news if you have a lot of low-mix, high-volume production to run.

Bad news - That control will most likely NOT be very friendly for setup, and day to day use in a high-mix, low volume job shop...

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It also looks like the “SLIMline” control is available, which looks like a way more normal interface. (I would definitely go that way.)

trochoidalpath said:

Anyone have one, or seen one in the flesh? Thoughts, opinions?

My parts fit in the work envelope and it's awfully compact for what you get -- I'd be looking at the simple 2-axis configuration. Looks great on paper but Mori stuff usually does....

Click to expand...

I had a look at these last year just as they were coming out / released. [Just an impression / experience - nothing "Gospel" ].

To be honest it's kind of DMG Mori's attempt at a MAZAK (in terms of hardware - not the control ).

It has Direct drive integrated spindle motor like a MAZAK (head stock) and has linear rolling element slides and trucks for the Z axis / bed / wedge of the machine BUT has conventional boxed ways on the X axis ~ referred to as hybrid.

So it's not as meaty or heavy as an NLX but probably better than the ecoline based CLX-es.

The Boxed ways of an NLX are really good for automotive parts with parts that have orthogonal straight cuts etc.

A Mazak or Hardinge (super precision) - type machine having linear rolling elements guides on all axes is better for "Nerdier" precision complex profiles and tapers.

Boxed ways are brilliant but not so great (unless you are master machinist that's one with the machine and amaze-balls at programming) for complex non orthogonal profiles that can get tripped up by "stiction" from time to time.

I was pretty excited about the ALX newer line but seems when quoted out they are not actually really that much cheaper than an NLX (which is a really super machine).

I'd rather go for the MAZAK as it's control is more friendly and they have been building that configuration for a long time (Not that MAZAK is trouble free. ) OTOH DMG Mori seem to have made more of an attempt at thermal cooling/ control through the casting of the ALX's bed and other components vs MAZAKs core cooled ball screws and chilled head stock.

It is NEW so maybe some teething troubles to be expected / wrinkles to be ironed out. [I don't know if that would get you any leverage for a discount or not ? ].

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@trochoidalpath maybe get a quote from DMG Mori for an ALX and then the closest NLX and then maybe get a quote for a MAZAK ... Given that (to my eye) DMG Mori have turned their hand to building MAZAKs ;-) ... I'm sure the Takisawa is pretty rugged iron. Doosan (of course is another "worth a look" depending on applications a perfect fit.).

I think in principal / on paper the ALXs look pretty neat for "Nerdier" high precision work but the sticker price is not so attractive IMO.

I agree that the footprint is pretty cool.

@Trochoidalpath which ALX are you looking at/ wanting ? - seems longer bed lengths (Z travels) for a lighter machine are possible (for some types of work really handy / useful ).

Any particular application requirement for the machine ?

cameraman said:

@trochoidalpath maybe get a quote from DMG Mori for an ALX and then the closest NLX and then maybe get a quote for a MAZAK ... Given that (to my eye) DMG Mori have turned their hand to building MAZAKs ;-) ... I'm sure the Takisawa is pretty rugged iron. Doosan (of course is another "worth a look" depending on applications a perfect fit.).

I think in principal / on paper the ALXs look pretty neat for "Nerdier" high precision work but the sticker price is not so attractive IMO.

I agree that the footprint is pretty cool.

@Trochoidalpath which ALX are you looking at/ wanting ? - seems longer bed lengths (Z travels) for a lighter machine are possible (for some types of work really handy / useful ).

Any particular application requirement for the machine ?

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This is all prototype, low-volume stuff, in aluminum or 300-series stainless or tool steels. Almost all of my parts fit in an 6" diameter by 8" long envelope. Tolerances are not excessive (0.02 mm is normal). (I can screenshot some parts if that would help.) My number one constraint is space: the machine needs to fit in something like a 66" wide by 87" deep box. There are ~3 ft clear behind the machine in that orientation for service access; if the electrical doors are on the sides the machine would have to turn 90 degrees.

80% of my work is milling, not turning. If a turned part is less than about 2" long, I will usually put it in a three-jaw chuck flat on the vise table and interpolate it. That works OK, but I end up sending out a lot of my turning as a result. It would be nice to bring it in-house.

If I could fit one of the small 5-axis machines that are turning capable, like a Speedio M140/M200, I would probably do that. The problem is that they are much too long. I might be able to rearrange the entire lab to make it fit but it would involve some pretty grim tradeoffs. Kitamura might have a very compact 5-axis machine that would fit but I don't know much about it. (This would also save me putting a 4th on the mill, which would be nice from a price perspective.)

As far as advanced features: I don't think a C-axis buys me much. It is not that bad for me to move a part the ten feet to the mill, probe a bore, and mill whatever features need milling. A Y-axis would be cool but they're hard to come by on something this small. I don't think I'd get a lot of use out of a sub-spindle, but a tailstock would be great.

Here's what I started looking into:

• Doosan: Nothing fits.
• Mazak QT-Primos: fits, but limited capacity. If there are other small Mazak lathes available I can't find them. I don't know if they import the QT-Primos 150. The Quick-Turns look nice and would fit except for the side-mounted chip conveyors
• Mori ALX: 300 series (64x70) would fit for sure, 500 series (78x70) might fit. NLX is too big.
• Takisawa: TCC-2100L3 (55x60) fits. TCN-2100 (84x60) runs into clearance problems because it is long, not deep.
• Nakamura: AS-200 (65x63) fits.
• Okuma: Genos L250 (64x65) fits, but has an unfortunate maintenance access requirement on the left side that makes it tricky. L200M (69x64) fits, but short max length. L250E is too big (82" wide). LB2000 is in the same place as the L250, it would fit except for that left side access requirement.... would have to totally rearrange the shop to get that to work.

cameraman said:

I was pretty excited about the ALX newer line but seems when quoted out they are not actually really that much cheaper than an NLX (which is a really super machine).

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This was my experience as well. When I asked about pricing on the ALX, it is close enough to the NLX that there really was no reason to even consider the former.

Still saving up for that NLX though...

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but Hass TL series may be just what you need. If you don't need anything to support volume production, are just interested in low volume / prototype work, want maximum flexibility, small space, etc... It might just be the perfect machine.

My only caution is that they are hopelessly prone to chatter in certain scenarios. Big course threads come to mind.

Other than that, it may be the perfect machine for you.


And I promise you - Using a scroll chuck is 10,000,000 times easier than constantly moving & cutting jaws on a turning center's power chuck...

Jashley73 said:

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but Hass TL series may be just what you need. If you don't need anything to support volume production, are just interested in low volume / prototype work, want maximum flexibility, small space, etc... It might just be the perfect machine.

My only caution is that they are hopelessly prone to chatter in certain scenarios. Big course threads come to mind.

Other than that, it may be the perfect machine for you.


And I promise you - Using a scroll chuck is 10,000,000 times easier than constantly moving & cutting jaws on a turning center's power chuck...

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Yeah, I thought about a TL, but... they’re too big. A TL-1 is 105” wide by 68” deep (plus a three foot access behind).

Takamaz makes some narrow lathes.

DanielG said:

Takamaz makes some narrow lathes.

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Thanks! They have some super compact models, I'll check them out in more detail. Do you happen to know anything about their US sales and support story?

trochoidalpath said:

Thanks! They have some super compact models, I'll check them out in more detail. Do you happen to know anything about their US sales and support story?

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Sold by Yuasa in the US. I've only dealt with them on buying tooling, so I can't speak to their machine sales/support side.

trochoidalpath said:

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• Mazak QT-Primos: fits, but limited capacity. If there are other small Mazak lathes available I can't find them. I don't know if they import the QT-Primos 150. The Quick-Turns look nice and would fit except for the side-mounted chip conveyors
  
  
• Mori ALX: 300 series (64x70) would fit for sure, 500 series (78x70) might fit. NLX is too big.
  
  
• Nakamura: AS-200 (65x63) fits.
  

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QT-Primos 150 - My (Mazak) dealer at the time said YES it is possible to import an QT-Primos 150 from Singapore.

Not sure if that's still the case and how long you'd have to wait / lead times ?
main spindle integrated DD type spindle - very accurate for concentricity and roundness , maybe overkill ? but very compact machine.).

Nakamura: AS-200 very solid machine. (not sure if it's overkill for what you need + Budget $$$ ?).

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Hardinge GSi series (GSi 150 ) - has a small footprint that would fit your space and cutting requirements (perhaps) ? It's not a gang tool lathe but built like a compact more conventional turning center - wedge -ish (one piece) type casting + hydraulic tail stock if you want it.

Affordable/more affordable plain vanilla offering - chip tray to "Muck out" ,

Not sure of your production requirement vs. emptying / raking out a chip tray every now and again ?

GSi Series | Hardinge

https://www.hardinge.com/wp-content/uploads/GS150i_1363-1A.pdf

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Hurco Tm6i might be worth a gander - fits without chip lift up conveyor possibly ?



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Any issues on ceiling height ? As for your 5 axis / 5 axis mill turn requirement most machines - (vertical mills) - really - have to allow for 105" 110" +++ (Height). Some of the Brother machine excel at being garage (door) height friendly but the M300X3 are taller (as well 103 ish " ). but the M200X is closer to 100" tall. [ I hear you on depth ].

cameraman said:

QT-Primos 150 - My (Mazak) dealer at the time said YES it is possible to import an QT-Primos 150 from Singapore.

Not sure if that's still the case and how long you'd have to wait / lead times ?
main spindle integrated DD type spindle - very accurate for concentricity and roundness , maybe overkill ? but very compact machine.).

Nakamura: AS-200 very solid machine. (not sure if it's overkill for what you need + Budget $$$ ?).

___________________

Hardinge GSi series (GSi 150 ) - has a small footprint that would fit your space and cutting requirements (perhaps) ? It's not a gang tool lathe but built like a compact more conventional turning center - wedge -ish (one piece) type casting + hydraulic tail stock if you want it.

Affordable/more affordable plain vanilla offering - chip tray to "Muck out" ,

Not sure of your production requirement vs. emptying / raking out a chip tray every now and again ?

GSi Series | Hardinge

https://www.hardinge.com/wp-content/uploads/GS150i_1363-1A.pdf

___________________

Hurco Tm6i might be worth a gander - fits without chip lift up conveyor possibly ?



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Any issues on ceiling height ? As for your 5 axis / 5 axis mill turn requirement most machines - (vertical mills) - really - have to allow for 105" 110" +++ (Height). Some of the Brother machine excel at being garage (door) height friendly but the M300X3 are taller (as well 103 ish " ). but the M200X is closer to 100" tall. [ I hear you on depth ].

Click to expand...

I'll have to see if I can get a Mazak rep to give me a call back and I'll take a look at that Hardinge.

I am 100% OK mucking out a chip pan when it needs to be done.

I didn't bring up the ceiling height issue because it's usually not a problem for lathes, but I only have 100.5" clear to the ceiling. I am very happy with my Speedio but it definitely helps that it isn't very tall!

trochoidalpath said:

Here's what I started looking into:

• Takisawa: TCC-2100L3 (55x60) fits. TCN-2100 (84x60) runs into clearance problems because it is long, not deep.

Click to expand...

There is also Taiwan Takisawa. NEX-105

It is tiny and if I recall correctly, the local dealer has advertised it on and off over the years for around $50k.

The ALX is a pretty nice looking machine.

When I saw them being demo'd in Davis, the control they were using was basically MAPPS IV.

Definitely much more compact than an NLX, which is their main selling point.

Orange Vise said:

The ALX is a pretty nice looking machine.

When I saw them being demo'd in Davis, the control they were using was basically MAPPS IV.

Definitely much more compact than an NLX, which is their main selling point.

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I apologize for my ignorance here: how is MAPPS IV to work with? (I almost never program at the control, in case that matters -- but maybe that's just me being a mill guy.)

I like the MAPPS IV a lot. On that machine it's most likely a Mitsubishi controller behind the scenes, but the MAPPS interface adds a ton of quality-of-life improvements that make it feel like a much more modern package. Personally I like the newer MAPPS V interface better, but a lot of machinists think the MAPPS IV was the best version, because it still has a more traditional menu and hardkey layout.

The CAPPS conversational programming that comes on the controller is just okay. It is relatively easy to navigate, but it just posts the program out as G-code, and it's not nearly as powerful as Mazatrol or ShopTurn. Still, CAPPS is good enough that many customers are running the NLX SY machines without a CAM system, which is worth a lot.

trochoidalpath said:

Yeah, I thought about a TL, but... they’re too big. A TL-1 is 105” wide by 68” deep (plus a three foot access behind).

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So, my main question - Does your work really require a real turning center, or would you be better served by a Haas TL or Romi style, CNC flat-bed machine?

I'm all for quality Japanese iron - But if the work doesn't require it, then the setup changes on a turning center turn into a real PITA.




Also - It's been a while since I've looked at one, but I can't believe the Haas TL machines require that much floor space. I even looked up the footprint drawing for a TL1, and still can't comprehend it...