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    Hello!!

    I'm considering to buy this machine.

    The price they are giving me is $ 102k with spiral augier.

    I'm a little bit concern about the opinions I'm reading here.

    My boss only gave me $ 105k budget to buy a cnc, we are selling a 5 years old VF-3 and we want a machine that cuts better
    tool steel than Haas because we are having problems due to the rigidity of Haas. Maybe most of you will say that Okuma Genos 560, we already have 1
    and it is a great machine but it is in $ 130k, so it is not an option right now.

    What other options should I consider? Now the Mazak is my 1st option but I'm worried because I'm reading that this machine
    is made only to compete with Haas.

    Thanks,

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    I have seen your other posts on this subject. I would doubt that the EZ mill offered by Mazak would have the power and rigidity you are asking for. I dont remember the numbers that the technician who was demonstrating it told me. But the continuous power ratings were much lower than the stated ratings in the brochure.

    I think it best you talk to Mazak about your concerns and find out more about it. They are so new I dont know how many people actually have one. I hope someone who does will tell us of their experiance.

    Charles

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    When this thread first appeared prompted me to do a bit of scratching around to look at a LOT of Power, RPM and torque curves from different manufacturers and different models within a range for a given MTB for this type or class of machine (more or less).

    At higher RPMs what's more important torque or HP ?

    Seemed that spindles that go to 20,000 RPM (in a lot of cases) had a lot more HP at the highest rpms - I'm guessing the notional Aluminum "Blitzing machines" + trochoidal milling strategies. [In the EZ series it's 12,000 rpm and 15,000 rpm - high HP spindles at 15,000 rpm do exist but seem to be more rare, like one spindle option out of 4 or 5 from Doosan, or the Okuma Genos M-560V* spindle.].

    Got me wondering about how these HP and torque curves are derived and how many are from actual measurements versus just being mathematically extrapolated and what that really means for what and how you want to cut ? Beyond fiddling with spindle load ratings.

    + all the different ways various MTBs prefer to represent stuff.

    Understanding CNC Torque vs Horsepower - Destiny Tool

    ^^^ rando link(s) to torque versus HP (only 25 second google about).

    Measuring CNC mill power, speed and torque |Shane | Engineer

    Hobby-iest ^^^ but engineering minded.

    At least mention of...

    Net Power at stall vs. RPM

    Torque vs. RPM,

    Stall power (like break horse power I guess) - vs. RPM

    No load Power vs. RPM.

    Milling Horsepower Calculator

    ^^^ Perhaps not so close to real life conditions, but something to compare against ?

    _______________________________________

    @ArturoMeltri maybe get some test cuts done (in materials) in the way you want to work Obvi. It's a new machine/ model / line for MAZAK.

    Hardinge also has/had some pretty powerful verticals in the $105K ish range - (Mits spindles and controls) but not sure how and where they are these days in terms of support etc. ? [Taiwanese machine.].

    Some folks were not happy with what MAZAK kentucky brought about with the VC series - sorta "Home grown" budget line launched not too many years ago. [as distinct from VCN etc. ].

    So some trepidation would be warranted in terms of brand new line with Kentucky EZ , so maybe one of their applications centers can run your parts for you.


    ___________________


    Even the curves and spindle torque/power plots I have seen I wonder if there's also been (printed and graphical layout) mistakes made at a particular MTBs publications department (in some cases) or whether sales "Peeps" / junior journeymen are reading some of these curves and plots correctly ? + all the silliness of the different scaled axes and Logarithmic plots and other non-linear schemes versus linear scales and plots to be wary of - versus reading actual stated values. + dense info graphics and un-intuitive color coding + sizes and scales of various plots where it's almost impossible to derive meaningful intermediate values. Deliberate pre- filtering to either emphasize what "They" want you to see versus what they might be more inclined to de-emphasize or hide.



    __________________

    * Maybe MAZAK sees or saw the complaint of chip evacuation and therefore had the 4 augers option. Also the EZ basic design is not a million miles away from the Doosan DNM series - T footprint + good chip evacuation - stout tapered column full width to the bed (casting) - if visual memory serves me right (or not ?).

    One of the main themes of the EZ series is a lean towards easy automation of one sort or another ?

    Early days I guess.

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    Yea I was talking to the guys at the show and they did not think the ez could take similar cuts to what I can push out of my fadal.

    The fadal has hp and a low gear that has no issues but not rigid at all so thatís the lacking part not the horsepower. Fadal is rated at 15hp continuously and has a 2:1 belt drive for low gear. So a bit more than the Mazak could muster torque wise even at the 5min ratings

    I would really need a test cut from the machine but there are other things I donít like about it so I donít plan on it.

    Arturo at your price point Iíd be looking at a doosan dnm5700

    Very competitive with the Mazak ez but cheaper and 4/5th axis capable also have better conveyer options and whatnot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    I found a lot of the same. Grilled the salesman a bunch about the spindle power.

    All that machine and it only has a 10horsepower spindle. Also very large and bulky for being only 12,700lbs. The base casting was ridiculously skinny for the machine enclosure size. My fadal looks wider in the y axis.
    The Current FADAL that you can buy and get parts for...

    https://www.fadal.com/images/specsheets/4020B-II.pdf

    has a 10,000 rpm spindle with 175 ftlbs (as it's geared) and has 15 HP (peak - output).

    Their 15,000 rpm spindle has 220 ftlbs of torque (geared) and has peak HP output of 22.5 HP


    I certainly get the appeal of geared spindle mills for LOW end torque, - even for low HP machines that has been a great advantage for 70 years at least.

    Very different from MAZAK's general "Jam" of integrated spindles and inline spindles.

    I'll do the spindle curves for MAZAK 15K RPM two different spindles in a following post - just for clarity. FWIW lol ;-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post

    They also happened to have a pretty weak demo going on.

    The tech also told me it was only capable for 3 axis work. Not 4 or 5 axis capable.

    I was genuinely disappointed in how little anybody knew about the machines although I was out after I stopped laughing that it only had a 10hp spindle.
    lol you can call it a 10 horse power spindle if you like. Even though peak horse power is 25 hp and 29.5 hp ...

    BUT your FADAL's low end torque (geared) for what you want to do is awesome - 175 ft lbs. that's what matters and where on the curve of course. + rigidity being helpful.

    The machine the EZ mill can "Dooooo" a 4th axis BUT - in general MAZAK unfortunately don't want "Peeps" to slap on a two rotary axis trunion (5 axis unit) to a three axis mill, ~ you CAN- or used to (like 15 years ago) but the machine becomes pretty dedicated to that with cablings and wiring and plumbing becomes a pain in the arse to undo - So That's why they (MAZAK) are more into "Upselling" folks on dedicated 5 axis machines. :-( / :- /

    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    I was genuinely disappointed in how little anybody knew about the machines although I was out after I stopped laughing that it
    A lot of techs at MAZAK for in house training have to learn ALL the machines rather than have more time on a particular platform like Mill turn integrex or Variaxis etc. Usually they complain that they can't spend more time on a particular platform or line that they like. Maybe in the mind of the disaffected individual demo-ing the machine he or she feels they drew the "Short straw" - whereas HAAS are very proud of what their VF line can do ? [Food for thought really.].

    If the guy standing at the machine is basically saying "It won't cut for sh*t" (paraphrasing a near imaginary conversation) then that IS worth paying attention to, assuming they don't start whiffling on about financing and VCN 530C etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    One thing to add is the door is extremely heavy. I’m a skinny guy so opening that 100lb door was not something I would want to do all day.
    That's interesting; the HAAS UMC 750(s) had a heavy door but they redesigned it.

    So you moved the door back and fourth and it was heavy / stiff or awkward ? Maybe the gauge thickness is helpful ? (safety ?) lol.

    mazak-ez-options-ish-2.jpg

    ^^^ Click to big-ulate.

    So ^^^ Options, 1000 psi, rotary options, niagra coolant , enhanced filtration etc. etc. blah.

    The T foot print does make the machine bed casting look freakishly narrow from the front profile, in spite of being taller / rigid.

    I personally like the 41" table height but that's not for everyone (for sure).

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______


    @Ianagos I certainly get or get the vibe that you are not taken by the EZ machine at all / very unimpressed. esp. for around $100K.

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    Default spindle curves - various - MAZAK - untangling

    mazak-lower-power-std-spindle-15k.jpg

    ^^^ Click to blowup (Standard Spindle pinched from VCN so 30.0 hp (max) /10.0 hp [10% ED/Cont.] ~ This is where the "Ten horsepower" comes from.

    Will dissect the curve in greater detail later.

    AND,

    mazak-high-power-15k-spindle-vcn.jpg

    ^^^ Click to blowup (High power spindle also pinched from VCN; Spindle output: 30 hp (max) /25.0 hp [10 min./Cont.] ~ But crucially higher torque through the range.

    So maybe the sales guy did or did not know that the more powerful spindle is not (currently) an option on the EZ (4020 type machine) - Although in my experience MAZAK can be more flexible as to what spindles they can provide or integrate with, maybe if enough people make enough noise about it they might be able to do that. However (no free lunch) that would probably nudge the price of an EZ machine towards a VCN anyways...

    The EZ series may be rolling out a 60" model so maybe a more powerful spindle would be on board for that (maybe) ? (as an option.).


    ___________________



    mazak-overloaded-diagram-1-low-power-.jpg

    ^^^ click to make larger.

    ^^^ This low power spindle diagram is super confusing because of the "Coincidental" scales they have used... Very Overloaded diagram (original).



    mazak-higher-power-spindle-diagram.jpg

    ^^^ Click to enlarge,

    ~ Higher powered higher torque spindle - seems slightly more straight forward until you start really looking at it.

    The complimentary (missing) rpm vs torque diagrams would also be more useful.

    It should be possible to ask for those from MAZAK , i.e. PROPER spindle torque diagrams not just brochure near non-sense.

    The EZ series has not formally published those yet.

    Then how the thing really actually cuts & MRR(s) obvi in different materials and cutting conditions.

    HAAS spindle curves seem a bit more straight forward even if the spindles are at 200%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    The Current FADAL that you can buy and get parts for...

    https://www.fadal.com/images/specsheets/4020B-II.pdf

    has a 10,000 rpm spindle with 175 ftlbs (as it's geared) and has 15 HP (peak - output).

    Their 15,000 rpm spindle has 220 ftlbs of torque (geared) and has peak HP output of 22.5 HP


    I certainly get the appeal of geared spindle mills for LOW end torque, - even for low HP machines that has been a great advantage for 70 years at least.

    Very different from MAZAK's general "Jam" of integrated spindles and inline spindles.

    I'll do the spindle curves for MAZAK 15K RPM two different spindles in a following post - just for clarity. FWIW lol ;-)




    lol you can call it a 10 horse power spindle if you like. Even though peak horse power is 25 hp and 29.5 hp ...

    BUT your FADAL's low end torque (geared) for what you want to do is awesome - 175 ft lbs. that's what matters and where on the curve of course. + rigidity being helpful.

    The machine the EZ mill can "Dooooo" a 4th axis BUT - in general MAZAK unfortunately don't want "Peeps" to slap on a two rotary axis trunion (5 axis unit) to a three axis mill, ~ you CAN- or used to (like 15 years ago) but the machine becomes pretty dedicated to that with cablings and wiring and plumbing becomes a pain in the arse to undo - So That's why they (MAZAK) are more into "Upselling" folks on dedicated 5 axis machines. :-( / :- /



    A lot of techs at MAZAK for in house training have to learn ALL the machines rather than have more time on a particular platform like Mill turn integrex or Variaxis etc. Usually they complain that they can't spend more time on a particular platform or line that they like. Maybe in the mind of the disaffected individual demo-ing the machine he or she feels they drew the "Short straw" - whereas HAAS are very proud of what their VF line can do ? [Food for thought really.].

    If the guy standing at the machine is basically saying "It won't cut for sh*t" (paraphrasing a near imaginary conversation) then that IS worth paying attention to, assuming they don't start whiffling on about financing and VCN 530C etc.




    That's interesting; the HAAS UMC 750(s) had a heavy door but they redesigned it.

    So you moved the door back and fourth and it was heavy / stiff or awkward ? Maybe the gauge thickness is helpful ? (safety ?) lol.

    mazak-ez-options-ish-2.jpg

    ^^^ Click to big-ulate.

    So ^^^ Options, 1000 psi, rotary options, niagra coolant , enhanced filtration etc. etc. blah.

    The T foot print does make the machine bed casting look freakishly narrow from the front profile, in spite of being taller / rigid.

    I personally like the 41" table height but that's not for everyone (for sure).

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______


    @Ianagos I certainly get or get the vibe that you are not taken by the EZ machine at all / very unimpressed. esp. for around $100K.
    Ok Iím not on a computer but Iíll try to not miss too much.

    The fadal I have is 15hp continuous. Iím not talking about a new one Iím talking about an ancient 2006 model I have sitting on my floor. It is geared.

    Mazak showed me the torque curves for the ez showing max 88ftlbs at the highest for any speed including the 15k spindle neither of which are geared.
    Their peak numbers are rated like haas now with 5minute rating not like the older mazaks that are 30min rated. 25hp peak doesnít mean much when itís only at a certain speed and for a few minutes.

    Maybe they didnít know but I was told the ez would be 3 axis only youíd need to move up to something different for 4/5axis.

    Basically the guy said it wouldnít cut for $ht. Said they were competing with haas on this one and not to expect would you would from a normal Mazak.

    Yes I opened and closed the door a few times and it is very very heavy... Iíve never had a Mazak mill but my Integrex and sqt18ms had much lighter doors or atleast easier to open. The Integrex even has a parts catcher box built into the door and it significantly easier to open. My fadal has the larger style doors as itís new sheetmetal and itís very easy to open.

    Yea the 100k is basically starting price on it if you start adding options who knows.

    The table did look tall but Iím not sure if I would like it or not. Iím pretty average height so I think Iíd be fine with it.

    I can understand the t footprint but the width of the y axis is the main issue there. That narrow of a y axis for a very heavy looking table and saddle in my mind means it will twist at full table extension in the x axis.


    On the lathe I had a qtu quoted at the same time as the ez lathe and it was significantly cheaper with much more capabilities but that was a stock model. Darn doosan lynx that looks very similar to the ez lathe is a massive price difference with more options like the Mazak is 50%more $ for very similar lathe.


    So these are all my opinions and my experience all my facts on the mazaks have come from Mazak people they may or may not be true. Maybe Iím dead wrong and Iíd like to be proven so if that is the case.


    Itís not the machine for me right now.

    I was looking at a nice vcn510c with trunion that just sold for under 80k. Seems like that would be a better machine for me.



    Question for the well educated Mazak folks out there?
    Is a vtc200 or vtc300 2010 vintage as rigid as a vcn510c or vcn530c?
    And how does that compared to a 90s fjv?

    (when I mentioned the fjv to the Mazak guy he said oh well thatís just a very rigid machine)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Ok I’m not on a computer but I’ll try to not miss too much.

    The fadal I have is 15hp continuous. I’m not talking about a new one I’m talking about an ancient 2006 model I have sitting on my floor. It is geared.

    Mazak showed me the torque curves for the ez showing max 88ftlbs at the highest for any speed including the 15k spindle neither of which are geared.
    Their peak numbers are rated like haas now with 5minute rating not like the older mazaks that are 30min rated. 25hp peak doesn’t mean much when it’s only at a certain speed and for a few minutes.

    Maybe they didn’t know but I was told the ez would be 3 axis only you’d need to move up to something different for 4/5axis.

    Basically the guy said it wouldn’t cut for $ht. Said they were competing with haas on this one and not to expect would you would from a normal Mazak.

    Yes I opened and closed the door a few times and it is very very heavy... I’ve never had a Mazak mill but my Integrex and sqt18ms had much lighter doors or atleast easier to open. The Integrex even has a parts catcher box built into the door and it significantly easier to open. My fadal has the larger style doors as it’s new sheetmetal and it’s very easy to open.

    Yea the 100k is basically starting price on it if you start adding options who knows.

    The table did look tall but I’m not sure if I would like it or not. I’m pretty average height so I think I’d be fine with it.

    I can understand the t footprint but the width of the y axis is the main issue there. That narrow of a y axis for a very heavy looking table and saddle in my mind means it will twist at full table extension in the x axis.


    On the lathe I had a qtu quoted at the same time as the ez lathe and it was significantly cheaper with much more capabilities but that was a stock model. Darn doosan lynx that looks very similar to the ez lathe is a massive price difference with more options like the Mazak is 50%more $ for very similar lathe.


    So these are all my opinions and my experience all my facts on the mazaks have come from Mazak people they may or may not be true. Maybe I’m dead wrong and I’d like to be proven so if that is the case.


    It’s not the machine for me right now.
    I think that's a very fair assessment and obviously like what Cblair / Charles set up is that it's an "impression" and "Opinion" + what you really need (more importantly).

    MAZAK can make it difficult to dig in deep on some of the goodness.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    I was looking at a nice vcn510c with trunion that just sold for under 80k. Seems like that would be a better machine for me.
    Second hand - could be good.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Question for the well educated Mazak folks out there?
    Is a vtc200 or vtc300 2010 vintage as rigid as a vcn510c or vcn530c?
    ^^^ Couldn't tell you but should be heavier. The Current VTC looks really great (at least for what we have to do) @scruffy bought one recently but NEW .



    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post

    And how does that compared to a 90s fjv?

    (when I mentioned the fjv to the Mazak guy he said oh well that’s just a very rigid machine)

    The FJV is very rigid but not 100% sure what spindle options you have for that + $230K -ish +++ price tag (new) (if memory serves me right); on the second hand market you see much more mold based spindles, high RPM but generally very low torque - (low end) -compared to the some of the more generic production verticals. For example with Makino their mold machines are ultra precise and ultra rigid but just really sufficient torque for near microscopic hard milling applications for their 30K +++ rpm spindles - [Idea being low vibration, low thermal growth , low runout ] different animal all together; that's why IMO the Okuma Genos M560V is so unique as they put a pretty powerful spindle on a bridge style machine.

    @Ianagos Good luck on your machine hunts / hunting.

    I'm very grateful for this discussion and @Cblairs observations and impressions as it does force one to take a closer look at things and not make so many assumptions as to what a machine can actually cut and how.

    If MAZAK did a bad job of presenting the machine / EZ series etc. on the day or hour or moment, then that's on them but I think they will or may take note of what people want, at least Kentucky group.

    I'm happy that a US based group (on US soil) is trying to take stab at this particular market, not just HAAS; but with MAZAK 'Ingredients" and some slightly out-of-the-box thinking trying to target smaller or more budget conscious shops or just folks looking for a more affordable on-ramp to the MAZAK "ecosystem"

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    Very helpful information. Thanks from Plots for sale in shadnagar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Question for the well educated Mazak folks out there?
    Is a vtc200 or vtc300 2010 vintage as rigid as a vcn510c or vcn530c?
    And how does that compared to a 90s fjv?

    (when I mentioned the fjv to the Mazak guy he said oh well thatís just a very rigid machine)
    I am going to say that the 200/300 VTCs are as rigid. The spindle on my 30C looks average and that machine was only available in CAT40. A few years later I bought a VTC 300 and the CAT40 spindle was huge, spindle enclosure was about twice as wide as the 30C. 200/300 series could be ordered in CAT50 and the extra enclosure room was for a gearbox. Grunt torque! My WAG is that my VTC300C spindle is maybe the same as the CAT50 spindle as far as outer parts like bearings, but has a 40 spindle hole.
    The VTC200C that was just installed has a spindle sim in size to my 30C, but could be ordered with CAT50. I am assuming the 200/300 series must be a lot more rigid or Mazak would have a disaster on their hands selling into the 50 taper market.

    I took a long look at the EZ series and with a bit more $ than the VTC200C I could have 2 on my floor. VTC won because of the 65"+ X travel, and the stationary table.

    The built in safety features on these newer machines just plain suck when you need to set up the machine. Axis moves are sub snail pace with doors open. I'm not even sure if a tool change can be done with the very heavy doors open. The tech doing the setup had 2 interlock "keys" that he inserted into the safety switches when doing setup. Long leash on each one that he draped over the opening to remind himself not to close the doors. That would jam a second key into the interlock. Today I am bringing some tin foil in and plan on taking an impression of the key shape, then laser cut one from 16 gauge 304. There is a lot of stuff to take apart to get to that key, adhesive/caulking too. But I can easily poke my hand in and take an impression. Mazak techs will repair/replace/set back to stock any defeated safety feature before ant warranty work gets done. Guess they will $ you for that part too.

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    I really like the Fadal belt drive system. The 2:1 and 1:2 setup gives 4 times more torque in low range vs high range. And its quiet, simple, wont be damaged in a crash etc, etc. Great setup IMO, wish more people would use it. The inline setups are all wye/delta but that only gives you a boost of 1.73 times the torque.

    Having said all that, the Fadals have decent torque but their HP at high rpms is pathetic. My machine is only a 10 hp, but I can easily stall the spindle at 8000 rpm with even a 3/8 endmill doing HEM. The motor base speed is 1725 and 2:1 ratio so its base spindle speed at 60hz is only 3450 RPM. The way VFDs work you get fairly constant HP up to 120HZ which is 6900 RPM and after that you loose HP VERY fast.

    Add in losses to the belt drive and you probably only have a few HP left at 10,000 rpm. Fine for small cutters but you can forget about running rated HP cuts at high rpm on a Fadal. I still love my Fadal in the meantime. I just stick with lower rpms when hogging. The extra torque sure is handy with you need to use a big drill or slotting saw!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBlair View Post
    Thank you for posting Peter, I just found out about your product yesterday. Before I saw your post here. You have a great looking design, I didnt realize that the product they were using wasnt of their own design. That explains why it looked like an aftermarket product.

    I wish you good success, I may even get one of them from you. But not right now, other priorities in the shop demand attention.

    Charles
    I really appreciate that, thank you for the feedback.

    Peter.

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    I may have missed it and apologies if so....but am I to assume this is a Taiwan bought in iron, and Mazak put their control onto it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    I may have missed it and apologies if so....but am I to assume this is a Taiwan bought in iron, and Mazak put their control onto it?
    That's a good question,

    They say "Built in Kentucky" and Kentucky - homegrown machine,

    Designed , assembled, hand scraped etc.

    But actually never gave a thought to where the 'Iron" / castings come from.

    Normally for more SE Asia based efforts (like Makino) they have more a base in Singapore.

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    Castings come in raw and are stored in an MRO system in the plant. There were some huge machining centers running when I took the tour many years ago. Men walking around setting a massive casting in place on a pallet changer. Huge casting in the machine.

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    Mazak is not re-branding a Taiwanese machine for the EZ series.

    Itís just not how Mr. Yamazaki does things.

    Win, lose, or draw, Mazak designs and manufactures their own machine, whether it pans out or not will be up to the end users.

    Mazak USA use to source most of their Mehanite castings from Mexico and Brazil...as there are not many (if any at all?) casting companies in America left that can do the work.

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Mazak is not re-branding a Taiwanese machine for the EZ series.

    It’s just not how Mr. Yamazaki does things.

    Win, lose, or draw, Mazak designs and manufactures their own machine, whether it pans out or not will be up to the end users.

    Mazak USA use to source most of their Mehanite castings from Mexico and Brazil...as there are not many (if any at all?) casting companies in America left that can do the work.

    ToolCat
    Greg,
    I know you're a Mazak fanboy and that's fine!
    The reason i had asked, is that on reading the posts it seemed that the Mazak guys didn't know much about it, and it doesn't seem very "Mazak" if it had skinny castings.
    If it's a budget machine, I was wondering if it was bought in and then add the control so they can compete in the cheaper markets.
    That's all.

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    I dont think so, but I do know that like Greg mentioned the casting come from outside the US but I dont know where. They advertise that the line of machines was designed and built in the USA. I will take their word for it.

    As for the tech, he knew a lot about the machines, but they are still new and he didnt build them. So there were details about them he didnt know for sure, remember this was an open house for the dealer, this guy was sent down there to run the machines for the demo. I dont know how much experience he had with them before the show.

    The castings seemed quite substantial as to how they were made. They just seemed really skinny for the size of the machine table. I am not an engineer, I am sure they asked at least one of them to look into it before building the machine. But from a scale standpoint I thought they looked thinner than I would have expected for that size machine.

    So did everyone else so I dont feel alone about that. I am sure the machines will be great for a startup, training and for a lot of people. They really seem to be pushing that the software and machines are sold ready for automation. It seemed to be a big point of the demonstration, even though they didnt have any on the machines at the time.

    I still like the turning center, had everything I would want on a basic two axis turning center and I think it will do well for them.

    Charles


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