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  1. #1
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    Default Need Help Cincinnati Milicron

    I have a 1996 Cincinnati Milicron Avenger 250 MS with programmable sub spindle and live tooling. It has been sitting for a while and i am trying to get it going. When I push the start button it passes the self diagnostics and all of the LED's on the Acromatic 850SX are correct according to the manual. No alarms of any kind. When I push the start button the second time to start the hydraulics, nothing happens. It appears to not be energizing CR 15 "E Stop". That signal comes from the DIMP3 board. All power supply's check OK including the I/O card cage. The machine may have lost its control parameters. I don't know where to get them and how to re install the parameters.I am also having trouble with the key sheet. Some buttons work intermittently and some not at all. The machine is in excellent condition.Can anyone point me in the right direction ? Thanks !!

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    Did you know how to run this machine before it set? You wiggled all the boards to make sure they are seated properly? If all boot tests passed I bet you still have all the machine parameters.

    Those control panels are junk! It was common for the membrane to go bad making the soft buttons almost impossible to work. That and not being able to get replacement parts is why ours got retired.

    You get the hydraulics up and I might be able to help you get it operating as long as you can use the buttons on the control panel. The Acromaitc control is a good control if you should ever get the machine bugs worked out.

    Brent

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    Sounds like it might need initialized. There is a specific procedure in the machine manual of a series of buttons to press on the contol panel, I can't describe it without the manual in front of me. It was described as "pressing all the buttons at random" by a knowlegeable serviceman but it's more specific than that. I did get one to come up by dong random button presses, but it took a couple tries. If power is turned off while the control is running, it will need re initialized. If you get a partial result and get stuck, just cut power while it's on and start over.

    And yes, failed keyboards are common. There's a couple threads here about repairing them.

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    Also, in a pinch, you can warm the keyboard up with a hair dryer. The keyboards dont like humidity or cold. Also, put a large dessicant bag in the control op station.

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    Yes what Mud said is probably the case. It probably does need the axis aligned.

    If it has a tailstock push and hold the tailstock and quill retract buttons until both the lights are on. Very close to those buttons is a button that IIRC says "CHUCK ID" but essentially this button tells the machine the chuck is clamped and the light need to be on. Our machine didn't have a sub spindle but I'd assume both chucks or clamping devices will need to in the clamp position.

    Then hit the Green or machine on button, hopefully you'll hear the hydraulics kick on. Then jog the machine down in X close or around to the center line. After that jog the Z kinda close toward the chuck.

    Then push and hold the "axis align" button. The turret should raise up in X then go back in Z and stop. Then the turret will jump a couple inches diagonally a X+ and Z- direction and come to a stop at the aligned position.

    Like I say our machine didn't have a sub spindle but I'd assume both process might be a tad different for a machine with a sub but the procedure should be similar. I'd guess the sub will probably need alignment also if it's not stationary?

    I don't remember changing any backup batteries but if this machine has them I'd consider myself lucky and change them before I did anything.

    Brent

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    Aligning is different from initializing. When it needs initialized, it acts lifeless. Once it is initialized it can then be aligned. First time it happened to me I thought I blew it up somehow. This is only for 850SX, I don't think the 850 needs to be initialized, only aligned.
    Has this machine been moved and reconnected to power? Last user may have powered it off wrong.

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    Yeah I run this machine off and on for 15yrs and I don't remember ever having to do that. Its been 5 or 6 years since I stood in front of it and truthfully I don't remember which Acromaitc 850 control it was?

    Actually the more I think about it. I think I remember once you hit the power on button the control went through all it boot up tests. Once it finished with the tests a message flashing in yellow at the top of the CRT screen said either "host control initialized" or "control initialized". The next thing to do was hit the power on button again then the hydraulics came on. As long as the axis were aligned (and normally they were) it was ready to run.

    Brent

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    It's kind of a shit quality picture but I found this one I took of our machine a couple days before they hauled it away.

    Maybe you said what you meant to say backwards? Maybe it's the 850 that needed to initialized and the 850SX didn't. Then again it could be possible I just never run into a situation where the control needed to be initialized?

    Brent

    20130926_162447.jpg

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    We have a avenger 250T just like Brent's picture(no sub) with the 850sx.

    It's actually the machine i cut my teeth on.

    On this machine at power on and checks are passed, you will see a message that says "power restart required". Anther strike of the power on key will kick on the hydraulics. Press the "Run" soft key, then you're ready to cycle start.

    Typically the machine only needs to be initialized after a E-stop or power loss. This is only available after the hydraulics are on. The typical initialization procedure is to cycle the chuck clamp I.D. O.D. buttons, tail stock quill controls, and then a turret reference.

    Siemens is supporting some parts for these machines still. We just got a new control panel with an lcd screen upgrade and all new buttons/membranes for around 3500 bucks shipped(like a 12k core deposit though). Its almost a pleasure to use again now that the buttons work like new.

    I don't know if this will be helpful to anyone or not, but here it is anyway.

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    My mistake.

    After reading my post, the hydraulics wont kick on if it needs initialized. a message will say "initialization required" when trying to power on the hydraulics. Then you cycle all the ancillary equipment through the soft key modes, then you can hit the power button again to kick the hydraulics on. After the hydraulics are on, you typically need to reference the turret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MotoX View Post
    My mistake.

    After reading my post, the hydraulics wont kick on if it needs initialized. a message will say "initialization required" when trying to power on the hydraulics. Then you cycle all the ancillary equipment through the soft key modes, then you can hit the power button again to kick the hydraulics on. After the hydraulics are on, you typically need to reference the turret.
    That's it.
    Yardbird - That's an 850SX. An 850 looks pretty similar and is very similar in operation, but the SX version is newer electronic technology. I have one of each, the programs are almost identical, the 850 does not have the control panel problems of the SX but has a monochrome monitor.

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    Hi all,

    I also own a Cincinnati Avenger 250T lathe with an Acramatic 850SX control from 1995, I just started to work on it, (it's been very slow around here with the Covid-19 and all that), after I initialize the control it alarms with this message "ALERT NUMBER 15312 NON CYC ALERT SL LUBE FL" can anyone help me with this alarm, I don't have the manuals for this machine but I know the Acramatic control a bit, I used to have a Sabre 750 with an Acramatic 850MC control.

    Any help would be appreciated, and also if someone could share the manuals it would be awesome.

    Thanks.

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    Not sure if your power has been pulled and reconnected but the 850 will boot and all look normal even if the power is out of phase. Everything looks good but the system knows that its out of phase and wont start the pump. It took me a $1500 service trip from Atlanta to show me that I just needed to swap two wires.

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    Looks like a warning that the way lube pump is low or empty. (SL Lube = Slide Lube, FL is probably Fluid) Check the reservior. If it's not empty, check fuses and wiring for that circuit.

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    So yes, my lathe was disconnected and connected again (like g-coder05 suggested), I inverted a phase to see if that would start the pump but no luck.

    I also checked the oil level and seems ok, I will change the oil and follow the circuit to check fuses and wiring (like Mud suggested).

    I will keep you guy posted on what I find and if I am able to get it running.

    Thanks for the replies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 805johnm View Post
    I have a 1996 Cincinnati Milicron Avenger. When I push the start button it passes the self diagnostics and all of the LED's on the Acromatic 850SX are correct according to the manual. No alarms of any kind. When I push the start button the second time to start the hydraulics, nothing happens. .Can anyone point me in the right direction ? Thanks !!
    Does it have air on it? I have a Acromatic 950 that will not start hydraulics if there is no air pressure.

    My 950 also has a board with a bunch of Mercury filled relay switches in it that like to go bad. I'm thinking the hydraulic contactor goes through that. (Assuming the 850 has the same type board)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wocozo View Post
    Hi all,

    I also own a Cincinnati Avenger 250T lathe with an Acramatic 850SX control from 1995, I just started to work on it, (it's been very slow around here with the Covid-19 and all that), after I initialize the control it alarms with this message "ALERT NUMBER 15312 NON CYC ALERT SL LUBE FL" can anyone help me with this alarm, I don't have the manuals for this machine but I know the Acramatic control a bit, I used to have a Sabre 750 with an Acramatic 850MC control.

    Any help would be appreciated, and also if someone could share the manuals it would be awesome.

    Thanks.



    "ALERT NUMBER 15312 NON CYC ALERT SL LUBE FL"


    I have a 200MT that I put the larger actuator in....to make a 2-1/2" machine....and I have a 200MS. I'm fairly sure I've had this same alarm in the past. There is a solenoid valve that supplies the lubrication system. The oil supply is from the main oil tank.

    The cliff notes version of how it works is that the solenoid is signaled at a specific time interval. From memory it is 8 minute or something. When that solenoid opens it allows a shot of oil/lube to enter the lube lines. At the end of the Lube system is a pressure gage. The control needs to see a spike of oil pressure when the solenoid is activated. This tells the control that the lube was initiated. Then after so many seconds the control double checks the pressure level and if the pressure hasn't bled off it will throw an alarm. (Granted there are many reasons for not bleeding off)

    My solenoid valve had junk in it....or had some issues and it wouldn't bleed down before the 8 minutes. I opened up and tried cleaning it, however I have purchased many parts over the years so I simply pulled a solenoid from another tank I have and I was up and running.

    If you know how to get into the diagnostics and understand how things are being displayed...... this is the the specific information that was told to me.

    The way the AVENGER lube software works is :



    1: At Machine Power ON or after the 1st lube ‘cycle’, PS_WAY_LUBE should be OFF or we post alert 15213



    2: SL_WAY_LUBE is then turned ON



    3: Then there is a 4 second delay allowing pressure to build up



    4: Then in the next 6 seconds after the delay we must see PS_WAY_LUBE ‘ON’ or go to an ‘ON’ state during those 6 seconds or we post alert 15312



    5: The solenoid SL_WAY_LUBE is then turned OFF



    6: We then delay 40 seconds while hopefully the pressure to PS_WAY_LUBE drops off



    7: About 8 minutes later we go back to step 1 where the PS_WAY_LUBE should be OFF again.





    So PS_WAY_LUBE should toggle ON and OFF every 8 minutes or so as the lube solenoid is toggled ON and OFF



    MTB COMM # 1 is set at 480 ( seconds ) that is the delay ( minus 40 ) between lube ‘cycles’

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    Quote Originally Posted by 805johnm View Post
    I have a 1996 Cincinnati Milicron Avenger 250 MS with programmable sub spindle and live tooling. It has been sitting for a while and i am trying to get it going. When I push the start button it passes the self diagnostics and all of the LED's on the Acromatic 850SX are correct according to the manual. No alarms of any kind. When I push the start button the second time to start the hydraulics, nothing happens. It appears to not be energizing CR 15 "E Stop". That signal comes from the DIMP3 board. All power supply's check OK including the I/O card cage. The machine may have lost its control parameters. I don't know where to get them and how to re install the parameters.I am also having trouble with the key sheet. Some buttons work intermittently and some not at all. The machine is in excellent condition.Can anyone point me in the right direction ? Thanks !!
    I have not dealt with your Hydraulics Issue yet.



    However I have similar issues with buttons.

    I have a 1994 200MS that when it sits for a while.....some of the buttons don't work worth a sh!t. If I massage them a bit they'll start to work. Don't push overly hard....simply push and hold....move around a bit....and repeat. When I run the machine for a few consecutive days the buttons start to work better. Even some of the ones I thought were simply screwed up will work if you sit and play with them. I know it sounds hokie, however that is what works on mine. I don't run this machine much. Maybe a job every other month on average, however if I get a few day parts run it gets better and better.

    Best regards,
    Rosie

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    I had this alarm recently on a 200T there is a lube distribution block where the pressure switch is above the x axis servo with an elbow on the RHS this elbow was a bit loose where it goes into the block, I assume this was preventing the system from getting to pressure quick enough as some air may have bled into the block ... I couldn't turn the elbow in a clockwise direction to tighten it as it was hitting the machine so I just took the two small bolts out that attach the whole block to the machine so I could move it back a bit and gave the elbow an extra 1/4 turn to tighten the tapered thread up, this fixed the alarm, maybe will do same on yours ... then I bought some longer bolts and mounted it with a spacer behind it.

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    I have just ordered a heap of these in 5mm Single Rubber Button Contact Repair 5mm ... I have repaired these before and it's a delicate job to get right ... I read this fixes the button issues and the buttons are responsive to a light touch ... but when you take your control apart treat it like brain surgery and photograph each stage as there are boards stacked with four conductive blocks separating them, these blocks have to go back in the same place the same way up so be careful when you lift the boards as they may stick to the bottom of the graphics board when you lift it and fall off so you wont know which way up they were, and all the small plastic spacers which there are many must go back (none left over) there are also some metal washers that transfer ground to the stacked boards they must go back in the same place, be extremely careful handling the circuit boards (static wise, wear a strap)or you will kill the graphics card and you will get graphics fail on start up I have one control with graphics fail but it still initializes ... there are some 850sx operator stations that have the circuit boards on the side (Sabre for one) but I think all the lathes have it stacked on top of the back of the keyboards also be careful when replacing the power plugs to the board when finished as they can be plugged in backwards or misaligned ... the worst thing you can do is to plug the operator assemblies big brown plug in while the machine with the main switch on as it can be plugged in to a degree backwards and there is 110v on it. if you have a spare panel pull that down first to get an understanding of the assembly before starting on the main event.

    There is another fix if you have a spare control just for parts ... get all the buttons out of the spare and go to your machine while it is running (yes running) and gently pull one of the small buttons that is not working out through the front of the grill and one of the wider buttons out also, but only do this on the left hand panel (the emergency stop button side)

    Now you have two spots in the running machine (with the machine running) where you can test all the buttons from the spare controller to find all the ones that work and those that don't by pushing the contact part of the button back into the spots on the running machine where you pulled the large and small button out ... if the button is good it should beep consistently with a light pressure ... usually only the most used keys will be no good and mainly on the left hand side ... but they are the same as the qwerty keys so you can easily find a full set from two controls to fill one control.

    After you have separated all the buttons from the spare operator station into two piles good and bad and some will have to be cut apart with the scissors as they are joined in groups on the qwerty board but will still work after separated, you can identify all the keys you want to replace on the running machine and go about pulling it apart and replacing them from your good pile of buttons ... but beware if you do pull a key out from the front you will not be able to put it back in properly without disassembling the whole operator station ... just be also aware that many keys on the qwerty and rhs panels are joined together at the flange so you cant stretch and pull them out through the front grill without destroying them.

    fyi the CTRL, SHIFT and CAPS LOCK (which i cant see a possible use for as everything is in caps) are not meant to beep when pressed ... you can test the panel after rebuild without reinstalling it back in the bulkhead fully by putting it up on top of the bulkhead plug it in with the """MAINS OFF""" and start the machine after plugging to see if it passes all the tests, boots, and initializes ... I did get a hand wheel "fail" when doing this once but when I reinstalled the operator station back in the bulkhead it must have pulled the face plate down flat and some contact reconnected somewhere and the error went away.

    If you attempt this be prepared to either be meticulous or have to redo the job over and over until trial and error hopefully gets you there in the end.

    there is a decent amount of locktite on all the small screws so you may have to go back and forth to get them out ... there are some stud posts stacked with the boards between them and when you undo them make sure they are unscrewing in order or you will flex the board like crazy.

    back to these blocks again ... they have a raised edge on one end that fits locates into the board to precision locate them ... position these before final tightening of the many bottom circuit boards nuts or they wont locate or make contact with the board at all.

    this is one of those jobs "never enough time to do it properly but always enough time to do it over". (ten times over)

    I made every mistake above and destroyed lots of sh.t.


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