What's new
What's new

Need help identifying and locating information on a Moog MHP CNC machine

msinko

Plastic
Joined
Feb 27, 2021
Hi All,

So I've been hunting around for a super cheap ($500) fixer-upper/retrofit CNC machine for a few years now and finally pulled the trigger on a Moog MHP T-24(not even sure that's the model #) sight unseen. I figured for $400 (including 40 tool holders) I can't go wrong in any way, even if I end up scrapping and parting it out.

I can't find any information on this particular model anywhere. This machine seems to be based off the Bridgeport Series II frame with boxed ways. I have not been able to find any other machine like it. Most out there are based on the Series I frame (S-24) or the larger machining center style frames (B-22).

When I arrived to inspect the machine for transport I was pleasantly surprised. The machine seems to be in great condition. The ways look pristine, didn't have time to check ball screws, which is what I'm assuming this machine has. After speaking with an employee I was told that this machine had just been setup for an upcoming job and was in perfect working order with the exception of the tool changer solenoid, which apparently sticks when cold.

I wasn't able to inspect the electric cabinet as it was locked. I am hoping the manuals are in there.

Any information about this machine would be much appreciated. After a few hours of research I can't even verify the model #...

Some other info for those interested:

Hydra-path III controls
Moog Hydra-point taper (never even heard of this before)
24 position tool changer
Flood coolant
13-1/2" X 42" TABLE
PNEUMATIC DRAW BAR
ONE SHOT LUBE
POWER QUILL
S/N: 27012

Thanks!
IMG_8087.jpg
IMG_8088.jpg
IMG_8089.jpg
 
Hi msinko:
First question; do you KNOW if it has ballscrews and steppers or servomotors?
I ask because way back when in the early 1970's Moog made a hydraulic servo valve machine.
I have no experience with them, but I did contract machining at the time for a local company that had a bank of them and I was given a factory tour.
They were apparently very troublesome and maintenance intensive, but were the best alternative available in those days for what the company was making (marine steering gear).

If it is a servovalve machine it is essentially junk...inaccurate, unreliable, slow unfixable etc etc.
If it is not, you may have a great hobby machine, but you do not have a competitive industrial machine if your eventual goal is production.
So find out first what you've got and go from there.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com
 
Hi msinko:
First question; do you KNOW if it has ballscrews and steppers or servomotors?
I ask because way back when in the early 1970's Moog made a hydraulic servo valve machine.
I have no experience with them, but I did contract machining at the time for a local company that had a bank of them and I was given a factory tour.
They were apparently very troublesome and maintenance intensive, but were the best alternative available in those days for what the company was making (marine steering gear).

If it is a servovalve machine it is essentially junk...inaccurate, unreliable, slow unfixable etc etc.
If it is not, you may have a great hobby machine, but you do not have a competitive industrial machine if your eventual goal is production.
So find out first what you've got and go from there.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Thanks for the info Marcus.

I am 99% sure this is NOT a hydraulic/servovalve machine. From the pictures each axis has what looks like a servo motor and encoder(the y-axis motor is inside the knee). All lines look like electrical conduit not hydraulic hose.

And for the naysayers, this machine was set to run a large commercial job but the sole proprietor of the machine shop died before starting it. And yes, I am very well aware that this ($400 LMAO) machine will not be competitive with a modern machining center. LOL

This machine came from a shop in upstate NY. They also had another Moog MHP machine, model S-0, at this site but it did not have a tool changer.

I'll be able to give you a full overview of the machine when I get it back to my shop later this week.

Cheers!
 
The machine probably looked pristine because they never ran it.
M illitary's
O bsolete
O range
G arbage.

I worked at a shop that had these. They were the only machines worse than fadals.
 
The machine probably looked pristine because they never ran it.
M illitary's
O bsolete
O range
G arbage.

I worked at a shop that had these. They were the only machines worse than fadals.

Thanks for the input. What in particular are the issues with these machines? I see a lot of hate directed toward these machines but nothing too specific. Except for the dreaded hydraulic/servo valve stuff, which I don't have.

Thanks.
 
Hi again msinko:
OK, so you have a pretty good foundation; decent iron, apparently in great shape, and all the guts and goodies to get you where you want to go.
For 500 bucks, I'd say you've done pretty well regardless of whether this is the best machine out there or not.

Now you've got some investigating to do and some decisions to make based on what you find.

Try to fire up the beast: if it powers up you can learn how to work it and just run it until it dies, or you get sick of its limitations or happily forever.
If it does not power up, you can try to fix it, retrofit a different control onto it, or part it out.

Old beasts like this, especially ones that were not popular and had proprietary controls or custom made bits are a cast iron bitch to fix because there's no support or parts around for them.
Retrofitting is pricey and when you're done you have a bastard orphan you cannot sell for anything remotely like the cash you put into it, but you know it superbly well and can fix damn near anything that shits the bed on it.

So the next decision revolves around whether it obediently powers up when you push the green button.
I will keep my fingers crossed.

Do you know what kind of control it has?
Hope for one of the common ones...there are a ton of guys on this forum who know Fanuc intimately well, for example, and seem to be happy to help.

For some of the weirdass outliers though...I will pray for you.
I have no idea if this Moog is one of those or not.

Hope also that you can scare up operation manuals, and maintenance manuals and that it hasn't dumped all its parameters.
Find out how to get programs into it...if it's old enough to need tape or floppies, you have escalating challenges to get it and keep it going.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
That thing looks very similar to a milltronics partner 4 but with a tool changer added on. If the control is no good a centurion 5 from a milltronics might be a fairly easy, budget option depending on the servos, drives etc already on the machine. A centroid all-in-one dc control is not exceptionally diffult for a machine like that either. Although the tool changer does add some hurdles. We did a centroid conversion on my dad's partner 4 over a weekend with a week or two of prep work bench testing the control and new servos, making adapter plates etc.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Hi again msinko:
OK, so you have a pretty good foundation; decent iron, apparently in great shape, and all the guts and goodies to get you where you want to go.
For 500 bucks, I'd say you've done pretty well regardless of whether this is the best machine out there or not.

Now you've got some investigating to do and some decisions to make based on what you find.

Try to fire up the beast: if it powers up you can learn how to work it and just run it until it dies, or you get sick of its limitations or happily forever.
If it does not power up, you can try to fix it, retrofit a different control onto it, or part it out.

Old beasts like this, especially ones that were not popular and had proprietary controls or custom made bits are a cast iron bitch to fix because there's no support or parts around for them.
Retrofitting is pricey and when you're done you have a bastard orphan you cannot sell for anything remotely like the cash you put into it, but you know it superbly well and can fix damn near anything that shits the bed on it.

So the next decision revolves around whether it obediently powers up when you push the green button.
I will keep my fingers crossed.

Do you know what kind of control it has?
Hope for one of the common ones...there are a ton of guys on this forum who know Fanuc intimately well, for example, and seem to be happy to help.

For some of the weirdass outliers though...I will pray for you.
I have no idea if this Moog is one of those or not.

Hope also that you can scare up operation manuals, and maintenance manuals and that it hasn't dumped all its parameters.
Find out how to get programs into it...if it's old enough to need tape or floppies, you have escalating challenges to get it and keep it going.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Hi Marcus,

The machine powers up (see pic) as it's been in use recently in a small shop and was about to be used for an upcoming job. The only error is the low air pressure due to the shop compressor being off.

It has a Hydra-path III controller. I've read elsewhere on the forum on how to configure a serial connection for drip feeding/transfers from a PC. This is how I plan to start out.

As long as the mechanics are fine I'll hold onto it. I'll use the Hydra-path III controller for now until it dies. Then, as long as the machine is holding up I'll retrofit a Centroid OAK controller pro kit with the tool changer option. If I can salvage the current servo drives the price wouldn't too bad at $2098, considering the feature list. Which is impressive and rivals modern machining centers.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the manuals are in the electrical cabinet.

The machine is arriving on Friday.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.

Cheers!

MHP CNC screen.jpgMHP CNC controls.jpg
 
That thing looks very similar to a milltronics partner 4 but with a tool changer added on. If the control is no good a centurion 5 from a milltronics might be a fairly easy, budget option depending on the servos, drives etc already on the machine. A centroid all-in-one dc control is not exceptionally diffult for a machine like that either. Although the tool changer does add some hurdles. We did a centroid conversion on my dad's partner 4 over a weekend with a week or two of prep work bench testing the control and new servos, making adapter plates etc.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Hi cb750chris,

Thanks for the tip and nice work on that Partner 4 conversion. I was able to find some milltronics models that resemble my MHP, especially the base and knee. It seems to be a fairly standard Bridgeport Series II design. Though the MHP seems to have both a taller column AND a taller upper arm / ram. This machine is close to 9ft tall and makes my Bridgeport Series I look like a toy.

Out of all the retrofit cnc controls I like Centroid's the best. Yeah it cost more but you really get what you pay for. Their open loop Acorn board is impressive for $300. Unfortunately, if you want to do closed loop like I do, it's not gonna be cheap. The Centroid OAK controller is what I'm looking at should the current hardware die. They have an ATC plugin for their CNC12 software for $280. I have a tech / EE background so the retrofit shouldn't be too tough.

Cheers!
 
There was always a mechanical issue. We had 4. We only really needed 2. They other 2 were for backup. No way could we keep all 4 running at once. Tool changer was a huge problem. It was always breaking down. Coolant pumps, electrical problems, you name it. If I remember correctly, these were made for the Navy. Think F-35 quality. And, the worst part was, they were all bright orange. An eyesore.
 
If it is a servovalve machine it is essentially junk...inaccurate, unreliable, slow unfixable etc etc.
Not a Moog, but I have a friend with a hydraulic Sheldon. Made thousands of parts, fairly trouble-free (Allen-Badley control), was just as fast and accurate as an electric machine of that vintage. In fact, was just as fast and accurate as a Mazak quikturn I was associated with later ... the main difference was the noise and the electricity bill.

And oh yeah, my H40 was hydraulic. It did the job. Donovan used them.

Hydraulics can work fine. Not 2020-level performance but they don't cost $50,000 either. For a non-critical environment (how to say "hobby shop" without being insulting ? :)) they can be fine.
 
Hi Emanuel:
That's an interesting take; I've never heard that point of view before.
The guys at the marine steering gear company seemed to just HATE these things, and I drank the Koolaid.
I've had prejudices ever since.

My only experience with hydraulic control of a machine tool was a tracer lathe we used to turn bottle molds decades ago.
It was pretty simple and pretty trouble free, but it just followed a template, so no extravagant control needed.

My other nodding acquaintance is with hydraulic ram sinker EDM machines, and they too did the trick but were nothing like as responsive as servo ram machines.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
There was always a mechanical issue. We had 4. We only really needed 2. They other 2 were for backup. No way could we keep all 4 running at once. Tool changer was a huge problem. It was always breaking down. Coolant pumps, electrical problems, you name it. If I remember correctly, these were made for the Navy. Think F-35 quality. And, the worst part was, they were all bright orange. An eyesore.

Ha, yeah, the orange is awful. That might be the first thing I change LOL. Thanks for the feedback.
 
Quick update...Jackpot! The machine came with a stack of manuals, I got:

Hydra-path III Programming manual
Hydra-path III operating manual
Toshiba inverter/VFD manual
Operating instructions for table and spindle mounted probes x2 <-what is this????
Maintenance manual x2
Electrical schematics

I am willing to digitize and share, just let me know what you want.

The only negative thing I found out so far is that the X axis is a lead-screw, not a ball screw. oh well. At least the electrical cabinet was in mint condition.
 
Curious how this turned out. I also ran a Moog Hydropoint, but it was a hydraulic type with a tape reader. Didn't have a computer on it, just a big reader for reading the tapes. You could also write up your own programs and punch the tape right at the control, but it wasn't handy by any measure. We couldn't keep it running for more than a week at a time. Always something just not working quite right, and needing find tuning. Tool changer arm would hang up sometimes. Spindle wouldn't find orientation sometimes. Just full of quirks. Those newer ones like you have, not sure about them. I had a line on one once, and considered buying it. But the guy who ran it talked to me in private and said it runs nice when it's running, but it was constantly having problems. I still think it would be fun to have if you are using it for a hobby, and you are handy with electronics. I hate to rain on your parade, and I didn't mean to do that. There had to be some that were decent, and I'm hoping you got one of them.
 
Curious how this turned out. I also ran a Moog Hydropoint, but it was a hydraulic type with a tape reader. Didn't have a computer on it, just a big reader for reading the tapes. You could also write up your own programs and punch the tape right at the control, but it wasn't handy by any measure. We couldn't keep it running for more than a week at a time. Always something just not working quite right, and needing find tuning. Tool changer arm would hang up sometimes. Spindle wouldn't find orientation sometimes. Just full of quirks. Those newer ones like you have, not sure about them. I had a line on one once, and considered buying it. But the guy who ran it talked to me in private and said it runs nice when it's running, but it was constantly having problems. I still think it would be fun to have if you are using it for a hobby, and you are handy with electronics. I hate to rain on your parade, and I didn't mean to do that. There had to be some that were decent, and I'm hoping you got one of them.

Hi Dave,

This Moog seems to be more modern. Not sure if it's all original, some parts are definitely not like the fairly newer looking Toshiba VFD. The tag on the inside of the electrical cabinet says the machine was commissioned in 1991. It has DC servo motors with encoders on all axis. So far I could only verify that the x-axis has a lead screw. The Y and Z are buried inside the machine and may require some disassembly. I spoke to the operator of this machine and he kinda said the same. It works well but has quirks and needs TLC. He even mentioned the sticky tool changer arm.

The machine has two serial ports for computer transfers or drip feeding. Or of course you could program it from the terminal but I don't think I'll be doing that much.

Currently I have the machine sitting outside my garage. I still need to remove some parts in order to fit it through the door. Then I have to figure out how I'm going to resolve my lack of 3 phase power. Either get a converter or a generator or convert the machine to single phase.

I have a bunch more pictures to upload but it seems any post with a picture takes close to 24 hours to show up in the thread. Is this normal?

I will keep posting updates as things move along..

Cheers!
 
Quick update... Jackpot again...

After a more thorough inspection the machine does have 1.25" / 32mm? ball screws on all 3 axis and they look to be in great condition. SWEET! (we'll see after testing...)

All ways are smooth as silk, including the spindle/z axis.

All 3 axis have ~800w permanent magnet DC servo motors (m206-b20k-9005) made by Gettys. The only encoder I could see without more disassembly is made by Opal. Unfortunately the model and part numbers are no longer visible on this particular unit.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the machine fires up as it should. I got a 20kw 3 phase nat gas generator coming later this week to power the mill.

I'm working on getting pictures posted to an image sharing site and I'll post the link here when ready.

Cheers
 
Let's have some fun...

Let's have some fun...

Welcome to "The Weight is Right!"

The user to correctly guess the weight of this machine, without going over, wins some free (lightly used) tooling of your choice (taps, end mills, drills, etc...) that I will ship to you at no charge.

Reply with your guesses.

I'll figure out the weight in about 15 days. (building a custom load-cell scale)

Good luck.
 








 
Back
Top