Need opinions on 3 Axis Okuma, Mazak, Makino

Hello All,

We are looking for a rigid and accurate 3 axis machine to do prototyping work on materials ranging from brass to titanium and anything in between. Would like to hear from you guys on opinions on the following machines in relation to the criterias listed below.

Our criterias are
- rigidity (Bridge type design)
- ease of interface
- machine accuracy (Position, repeat, cutting accuracy etc.)
- longevity of machine accuracy
- spindle quality (HSK-A63 spindle, we are buying a 5 axis later in the year and that is a HSK spindle, dont want multiple types of tooling)
- Axis movements about 800-1000mm by 400-500mm and 450mm Z
- Other stuff, like probes, chip management etc. seem to be mostly equal in selected machines.


All the brands have almost equal service quality in our area. We have looked at many machines but, mostly interested in the following:

- OKUMA MB-56 VA (Genos doesnt have HSK)
- MAKINO F5
- MAZAK FJV-250

Open to suggestions and thanks.

Regards.

I wouldn't think the f5 would be very rigid. I have no Mazak experience but I would opt for the Okuma if it was my buck.

3 very good brands. I only have experience on Okumas (25+yrs) so I can't comment about the other ones.
The MB-56 is a solid machine, and the OPS300M control is darn near unbeatable IMO.

Ive never used an F5 but i have used many of their V series. I think the F5 would be better for faster lighter cuts so primarily finishing.

PegroProX440 said:

I wouldn't think the f5 would be very rigid.

Click to expand...

This ^ is interesting. What reasons for the opinion? Lack of rigidity is not typical of Makino. I've not run, nor worked on, an F series machine though so what's going on there?

For me it would be a coin toss between the Makino and the Okuma with control preference maybe swinging the choice. OSP is an awesome control from a performance and operator standpoint. The Pro5 (Fanuc 30 series based) is an excellent performer and pretty nice from an operator standpoint. My experience is that Fanuc will have slightly better reliability and wider range of choices for parts and support

Never had good experiences with Mazak, particularly when compared head to head with builders like Makino and Okuma, so IMO, not even a consideration.

I have never used one in person but I have herd people say the F series are more lighter duty than the V series of machines. I know the Genos is a beast with the big plus spindle so I would imagine the MB is the same (I know HSK is whats spec). But I do not think you could go wrong with either.

Thats interesting, the build structure of the machines are very similar, so I would have thought the Makino to be on par with rest if not better. The Mazak weights more, and has 52m/min rapid and cut speeds while the other two are slower. However, I have not obtained the accelaration values yet. Speed isnt as important to us as accuracy but, accelaration values tell a lot about the machine rigidty.

I know that some Mazaks are built a little weak but, I thought the FJV would have recieve a little praise here

The Mazak FJV vmc's are bridge-style, heavy, fast, and powerful beasts.

The FJV's are not that common in the U.S. (Price, and being built in Japan - most U.S. shops buy Kentucky-built C-frame Mazak vmc's).

That's probably why you're not getting much feedback on them. But IMO, the FJV series with more horsepower, more weight, similar-sized guides and screws, great control, etc. is a valid competitor to the Okuma and Makino.

ToolCat

Place I used to work had an FJV20.. An oldie, '95.. That thing was a F'n Beast..
Rock solid and deadly accurate..

Back then rapids were only 1100 ipm, but the acceleration.. You couldn't leave the vise handles on,
they'd stay right where they were, hovering in mid-air, like Wil-E-Coyote running off a cliff...
and the table would just take off.

When it first arrived, we didn't have it bolted to the floor.. It would walk... So I made some feet with
some 3/4" deep pockets for the machine feet to sit in, and bolted those to the floor.. It actually jumped out of the
3/4" deep pockets, that was quite the surprise...

I loved that machine, and when I was planning on going out on my own, I was thinking Mazaks, and then the spindle
puked.. Just a 12k.. $11.5k for the new spindle, $11.5k core charge, and $2900 to put it in to retain the warranty.
That was when I decided that I was much more comfortable with a $3k Fadal spindle.

It almost NEVER broke, usually something stupid like a hall effect sensor.. We had all kinds of problems
with the tool changer, it was still a carousel/umbrella... I think they were really pushing the outer limits
of how fast a carousel can work... But the new ones should be swing arms.

I really liked that machine.


For fun.. Had to move a job from our Fadal over the FJV.. 6 and a half minutes on the Fadal.. Same exact program and
tools on the Mazak, it was 4 or 5 tools.. Run time dropped to 3:30, all tool changes and accelerations... So me and
the other guy in the shop that day decided to see why the Fadal was so slow, how much rapid time, how much tool
change time etc... So we pulled up the recliners (everybody has recliners in the shop... don't they??) get out the
stop watches, kick our feet back and start timing the Fadal... And in walks the Mazak salesman.. We all had a good laugh.

Your question does not include the types of work very well, like '3-D Surfaces' for example. Surfacing makes all three machines equal, as no heavy cuts needed, rpm is important, and all three require an offline programing system.

The mazak does a more than adequate job of 2-D programs, especially for prototypes. Do you want to spend the money for cam systems, maintenance, and operator for what the mazak does free?

Actually, the machine will go into a university R&D facility, thats why I cant comment on the type of work that will be done there. Its not because I am hiding info btw, its just that we will be doing something mostly 2D one week and something utterly different and 3D the next week. That goes for materials as well. However, because it is a university facility, we have some partnerships with CAD and CAM guys, especially Autodesk. We have Fusion and Powermill and Inventor HSM running. We also have relations with Edgecam that is willing to work with us but, we havent tried their CAM yet and honestly, we are pretty comfortable with Fusion for now.

On the other hand, it is pretty convenient to do basic 2D stuff on the controller, I have to admit, thats why ease of interface was on my criteria list

Today I learned that both the Makino and the Mazak use roller linear ways while the Okuma uses ball linear ways. Also, the Mazak uses 67 million count encoders on axis drives, which is more that the others. Just info that might be useful to someone else that might be in my shoes.

I have an F5, but I haven't used the other machines on your list.

Yes the F5 is all linear/roller guides. It isn't a light machine, but it's not as stout as the V series Makinos. I would not call this a hogging machine, unless you get the low speed spindle. The 20k and 30k spindles have no torque, but they are beautifully smooth spindles that are ideal for their intended purpose, mold work. I use mine for hardmilling 3d surfaces and machining electrodes and it works well for those tasks.

The accuracy of the Makino is pretty good, spindle thermal control is really really good.

I don't think this machine really fits in as a general purpose VMC, it's fairly specialized. But if you went with their 13 or 14k BT or CAT spindle it might be ok.

I had significant problems with the first two new Makinos I bought, I actually had to have them replaced.

Hi Dave, can you give me some more detail on this please. What were the problems you had? Is it obvious that the machine is built in Singapore rather than Japan? When you say the machine is not fit for a general VMC, are you saying that because of the lack of rigidity or just because of the 20K spindle? Thank you.

Too many issues to list. If you buy one, make sure it meets ALL of the specifications in the inspection report. You can definitely tell it is made in Singapore and not Japan.

I think the machine is likely rigid enough for general use, but I'll never be able to tell with the 20k spindle. I didn't buy the machine as a universal type machine so it doesn't matter to me. I don't know if this machine can even accept G02 or G03 commands, to get the surface finishes we need we have to run a 1 micron tool filter tolerance, which makes processing code time consuming.

byazici said:

Today I learned that both the Makino and the Mazak use roller linear ways while the Okuma uses ball linear ways. Also, the Mazak uses 67 million count encoders on axis drives, which is more that the others. Just info that might be useful to someone else that might be in my shoes.

Click to expand...

The Okuma ball linear ways are not "normal" ball type linear guide ways. They use the THK NR/NRS series. The design does not use a gothic arch, and sees increased contact under load, resulting in controlled slip with higher damping. You can download the THK NR/NRS-X bulletin to read more.

Ohhh! thats great info, didnt know that. Very interesting technology. Thanks.