Need source for oolant-thru ER collet shanks and sleeves
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  1. #1
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    Default Need source for oolant-thru ER collet shanks and sleeves

    Two new Hyundai-Wia turning centers arriving Monday, both have the higher-pressure coolant option for 5 x D drilling. I have lined up the drills needed, and plan to hold them in sealed ER collets, in hollow ER collet chucks with straight shanks. All fairly straightforward so farexcept the turret stations have external coolant connections and you have to induce coolant thru a sleeve, from the front. Does anybody know who sells those? The machine tool salesman has no clue, just a mumble. We've made them before but don't currently have the time, would rather buy from somewhere. Internet search hasn't turned up anything except small Swiss tooling.

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    What size shanks do you need?

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    We have ER20 x 1" toolholders with hollow shanks. What I need are the SLEEVES for the turret toolholders which are 1.5 bore.

    This is what we've made in the past, using hoses to connect the external coolant port in the turret with a homegrown sleeve. The sleeve has a hole down the length of its wall, which is cross-drilled to conduct coolant to the rear of the tool shank. O-rings restrict the coolant from getting anywhere else. A fair bit of work but it eliminates having coolant spray out the set screws. I was hoping to buy something like this.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails coolant-bushing.jpg  

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    So I'm in that "small Swiss world"... I can't think of a time I've needed, or even seen a sleeve like that. But if you tell me what manufacturer you saw something vaguely resembling what you need, I may be able to cross reference it to something that fits your needs for you.

    Also, this is gonna sound dumb... But couldn't you just buy the 1.5" shank ER32 collet holders from Rego-Fix (here: https://static.rego-fix.com/sites/de.../263813253.pdf), and then drill/tap them to accept your coolant fitting?

    I realize this would require new holders and collets, but if you're dedicating the machines to these drills, the expense wouldn't be a whole lot greater than buying a custom sleeve/machining a custom sleeve yourself, and the machine time to drill/tap a couple, or even a couple dozen of them would still be cheaper than paying someone to machine a custom sleeve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Two new Hyundai-Wia turning centers arriving Monday, both have the higher-pressure coolant option for 5 x D drilling. I have lined up the drills needed, and plan to hold them in sealed ER collets, in hollow ER collet chucks with straight shanks. All fairly straightforward so far—except the turret stations have external coolant connections and you have to induce coolant thru a sleeve, from the front. Does anybody know who sells those? The machine tool salesman has no clue, just a mumble. We've made them before but don't currently have the time, would rather buy from somewhere. Internet search hasn't turned up anything except small Swiss tooling.
    Get the tool blocks that have internal coolant. No need to alter the collet holders.Sure it's a bit mroe $,but the convenience tradeoff is so worth it.

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    I'm holding in my hand what you're describing, except 3/4" shank and ER16 collet. Presumably they make other sizes though. I got the holder plus a set of collets from a local machinery dealer, maybe 20 some years ago.

    Exactly as the brand new, unused tool is marked:

    Valenite

    S075-CFC16-2520

    ST 3/4 'X2-1/2' ER16 E


    Googling on the above didn't bring much up other than Walter Valenite. Apparently Walter bought Valenite or vise versa.


    On edit: I just noticed the collet closing nut is marked: 'ZEIKEN Swiss Made R16'.

    On edit 2: Genswiss has one like mine. They don't show ER20 in 1" shank, only ER16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Two new Hyundai-Wia turning centers arriving Monday, both have the higher-pressure coolant option for 5 x D drilling. I have lined up the drills needed, and plan to hold them in sealed ER collets, in hollow ER collet chucks with straight shanks. All fairly straightforward so far—except the turret stations have external coolant connections and you have to induce coolant thru a sleeve, from the front. Does anybody know who sells those? The machine tool salesman has no clue, just a mumble. We've made them before but don't currently have the time, would rather buy from somewhere. Internet search hasn't turned up anything except small Swiss tooling.

    ... and you knew this when you ordered it?

    A new CNC lathe in late 2019 and it doesn't have internal coolant?










    Or maybe Mtn Dew knows sumpthing that you don't,and you jist need to buy the 1.5x $ holders in stead of the cheap POS's?


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Are you absolutely certain about the coolant routing through the OD holders?

    Just about all the ones I've seen are ported into the bore as well as the front holes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Are you absolutely certain about the coolant routing through the OD holders? Just about all the ones I've seen are ported into the bore as well as the front holes...
    Yes, fairly certain, I have eight of these machines and on all of them the internal turret porting leads to the usual ball-base adjustable nozzle on the front face of the bolt-on tool block; it doesn't open into the 1.5 bore in the tool block. To feed spade drills, we use the flanged type with a front port and a short hose looped around to the nozzle. That works fine and doesn't depend on the mechanical fit of the shank to provide a seal. I was hoping to find a sleeve with that provision. In case you were wondering, in these workpieces the holes are too small to use spade drills, we have to use solid coolant-thru drills in collets.

    Now I suppose one could modify the block by drilling it thru, milling a corresponding slot in the bushing or sleeve to conduct the coolant to the back of the block, and cap off the back with an o-ring. Maybe I'll do that. I just hate the idea of depending on the fit of the tool to provide a seal—I'd rather all of the coolant (yeah, "oolant," sorry) came out the end of the drill instead of it finding every available gap and set-screw hole. But I guess I'll see what comes with the higher-pressure coolant package tomorrow...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Yes, fairly certain, I have eight of these machines and on all of them the internal turret porting leads to the usual ball-base adjustable nozzle on the front face of the bolt-on tool block; it doesn't open into the 1.5 bore in the tool block. To feed spade drills, we use the flanged type with a front port and a short hose looped around to the nozzle. That works fine and doesn't depend on the mechanical fit of the shank to provide a seal. I was hoping to find a sleeve with that provision. In case you were wondering, in these workpieces the holes are too small to use spade drills, we have to use solid coolant-thru drills in collets.

    Now I suppose one could modify the block by drilling it thru, milling a corresponding slot in the bushing or sleeve to conduct the coolant to the back of the block, and cap off the back with an o-ring. Maybe I'll do that. I just hate the idea of depending on the fit of the tool to provide a seal—I'd rather all of the coolant (yeah, "oolant," sorry) came out the end of the drill instead of it finding every available gap and set-screw hole. But I guess I'll see what comes with the higher-pressure coolant package tomorrow...
    Oh, so these are used machines that you have comming in - to be just like what you already know.
    Well sure....

    But your last paragraph is exactly what I would doo, or even have actually done when I needed a cpl more holders for one of my lathes a while back.
    It's just "finishing" the block that they neglected to doo.

    Although I have no clue why you're so worried about a perfect seal?
    It's not like there won't be coolant slipping out everywhere else Shirley?
    And it's also not like the pressure will fall off noticeably between a bit of a leak and no leak.

    ???


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Oh, so these are used machines that you have comming in - to be just like what you already know.
    No, new machines, Hyundai Wia L160A TCs, one for 1st op and one for 2nd op on one product. Both ops involve 5xD holes neighborhood of 3/8, hence the higher-pressure coolant option. The other TCs are Hyundai Wias because of familiarity with the product—better the devil you know, right?

    Although I have no clue why you're so worried about a perfect seal?
    It's not like there won't be coolant slipping out everywhere else Shirley?
    And it's also not like the pressure will fall off noticeably between a bit of a leak and no leak.
    Well, I guess that comes down to a philosophical disagreement, Ox. We never have coolant slipping out anywhere but the nozzle or the end of the tool. But I get your point—which is that I might be OCD, but I make automotive steering hydraulics, where leaks really, really matter. Perhaps I am unfairly biased against coolant leaks! Thank you all for the feedback, I'll post pics of whatever solution we come up with.

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    Well, some leaks actually could be a good thing as long as they don't lower PSI much and as long as they aren't blowing the chips back in the holes.

    If you have small ports and high pressure, you won't be gitt'n much volume through your pump, and your pump could get pretty warm, where the extra V going through would help to cool. I know this is an issue on some diesel inj pumps as well as they are designed to send extra through the return line, but if the lift pump git's too bad, the inj pump can get hot.

    But I guess if that a concern of yours, you could jist spin an O-ring groove in your sleeves?


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    Ox
    Last edited by Ox; 10-21-2019 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Those would be "c"hips, not ships...

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    I don't recall ever seeing a cnc lathe that doesn't route coolant into ID holders.
    But I suppose they exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    I don't recall ever seeing a cnc lathe that doesn't route coolant into ID holders.
    But I suppose they exist.
    I don't have much experience with different lathe brands, but this ^ is what I am thinking too..? On Haas style (well the vintage I know LoL) tool blocks it was a matter of removing a plug in the back end and screwing on a plate IIRC. Sure, might leak a bit on high pressure, but I imagine a quick mill for an o-ring or such would fix that. It sounds like this is a dedicated setup so I would modify what needed to be done and have it "right" YMMV...

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    Thank you guys, except for gratuitously pointing out that our coolant doesn't have any P in it. Thank God. Reminds me of a place I worked alongside a 55-year-old mean drunk who lived at home and carried a constant antimanagement attitude. Actually he was anti-everybody-else as well. One day just to show what a badass he was, he urinated in the pan of the Monarch 10EE he was using. He couldn't be fired because he'd "worked" there 30+ years.

    But I digress. The new machines came with what they call U-drill holders, which are the same as those on the other TCs except for being drilled with coolant passages six ways from Sunday, which open into the rear end of the bore using an O-ringed plate. No external plumbing needed. The holders do the job of the PITA adapter sleeves we used to have to make. I am ordering ER sealed collets and 1.5 holders from Mari today and, per OX, will put O-rings in the shanks. Pic of machines posted as New Machine Day in the personal shop pics.

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    I have to mention that these MariTool holders are really, really nice-looking high quality pieces. And, astonishingly, priced at less than 50% of the cheapest Interstate crap from MSC. This is unbelievable. Anybody in competition with Frank had better seek a different arena.

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    Oldwrench,
    Thank you sir. We do our best.


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