New Brother S700X1

LMM · Jun 26, 2020

Hello all, I apologize for posting this in a bit of a general forum instead of the phase converter/transformer section. Rather than PM people, I thought some of my Brother brothers might be more likely to see this here and help out.

I just had a new S700X1 delivered today and am running into some issues I thought you might be able to help with. I know a couple of you are running similar machines off an RPC or at minimum running the 3 phase through 2 transformers after your converter. Here is one reference (RPC with 2 buck/boost): https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/new-machine-day-brother-speedio-356518

I am attempting to run my machine in a similar fashion and am getting some strange results on the output from the transformers.

I was hoping someone might be able to lend some advice on the wiring used?

I currently have mine set up in the attached configuration. (or they should be)

Should I be connecting the generated leg from the RPC to a specific leg in that diagram?

Thank you for your help.

drcoelho · Jun 26, 2020

what voltage are you seeing on your transformer output side?

Keep in mind that the Brother Speedios are happier with more like 208V versus 220/230V. During initial install of my Speedio, we also had some problems and the Yamazen tech felt it would be better to have lower voltage, so I installed a step-down transformer to get to the desired 208V.

LMM · Jun 26, 2020

From each leg to ground I was seeing 90, 120, 190...

I took another look and realized that given how the taps are set up between the two, if the high leg was not in the “middle” the output might likely look something like I was getting. Sure enough my generated leg was on the right in that diagram. I moved it to the middle and am now getting what I’d expect. To ground I am now seeing 110, 110, 220. Which is the stepped down voltage I was expecting. This is not under a load.

Yamazen is coming back in the morning to finish up. I felt bad not having it right.

Thankfully Peter is awesome and local. Let’s hope this fixed it. If I have to drop the voltages further, that’s fine. The transformers aren’t very expensive.

D.D.Machine · Jun 26, 2020

buck it with a small single transformer "BEFORE" the RPC ,,, I bucked 60 amps of 240V single phase down to 210V for about $200 . I can get you all the info on my buck set up if you need it ,,, well it might be over size for your use it would work fine …. Whats your single phase line valtage? it should be around 240 V

Pete Deal · Jun 27, 2020

I'm in the same situation. I used an American Rotary (brand) 3 phase buck/boost transformer. I think what you have is called an open delta configuration. The question is what are your leg to leg voltages? These should be in the 210-240 range. Probably others more knowledgeable than me will chime in but the ground to phase voltages are generally not real predictable with a phase converter. The machine does not use ground other than for safety so does not care what the ground voltage is relative to the phases. The tech just finished starting my S1000 and he also noticed that the ground to phase voltage on mine was not super consistent. The machine doesn't care.

Regarding where to install the transformer you can either buck the single phase or the 3 phase. I did the 3 phase too.

The problem with bucking the single phase, at least in my case, is that my RPC is 30hp and the single phase supply is 125A. This makes for a big transformer and more big wiring. In bucking the 3 phase to only the machine I only needed a small transformer about the size of a lunch box.

LMM · Jun 27, 2020

Thank you for the info.

My line to line voltages are between 213-218 no load. Sorry, should have included that info.

Pete, when you say you are in the same situation, do you just mean you’re using the same setup or are you having issues?

I actually have North American 20hp and 15hp units combined. This is adding to the complexity of this in that the two are not “liking each other.” Phases match etc. though I am going to double-check ALL of the wiring again this morning. We were getting an over-current error yesterday on spindle speed change once it starts doing jumps of 2K. I finally realized we were actually only running off the 15hp unit only. Among other things.

Once I have that sorted out as well, it’ll be running off a total of 35hp.

I forgot to mention, this is a high torque machine, so even though the breaker might be a puny 30 amp... the instantaneous current can get way up there. Need lots of copper to eat all that up.

Thanks again for the info! Also, far as I know, you’re right Pete, a single phase buck in front of the RPC has to be sized to the RPC load and machine load. (Based on my reading...) this isn’t necessarily true in the case of the Phase Perfect I gather. I also didn’t want to drop my entire 3 phase down if I didn’t have to.

Pete Deal · Jun 27, 2020

By "in the same boat" I mean I need to step down too. As far as I know I am ready to go. I've run the spindle through step changes and it works ok. Mine is the 16k spindle so maybe the current spikes are not as great on mine, not sure there.

I think your phase to phase voltages are fine and the fact that the phase to ground voltages are a little bit all over the place I think is common and should not matter.

Not sure on the bit about combining converters. Probably you should call the phase converter mfr for assistance there.

I do agree with you that having a bigger converter is good though. I've run both my A00 control Brother and my Mazak QT15 lathe on my converter at the same time. The Mazak is a beast compared to the Brothers so I figure if that will run with the Brother I should be ok. I did do some steady state current measurements with my Old Brother some. The at rest powered on current draw with coolant pump on is 2 amps max (phase loads vary quite a bit). Running a program it's like 6 amps. But my meter is not one that will show peaks so I can't tell what it spikes to as the spindle ramps. As you say I think this is where having a larger converter helps. I hope to do some current measurements with my Speedio soon and see what it looks like.

Pete Deal · Jun 27, 2020

I just took some current measurements on my Speedio.

Machine just sitting there powered on with only coolant pump running steady state current max is about 2.5a. By max I mean not peak but max I saw on the 3 phases.
Machine sitting there with spindle running at 16k rpm max steady state phase current I saw was about 4.5a

The Amprobe meter I'm using does have the ability to measure and record peaks so I set it to peak mode and turned the spindle on to 16k rpm and the peak it recorded was 114 amps!

I took a peak measurement while starting the 10k rpm spindle of my A00 control machine and got 119 amps. I've been running this machine for about 5 years with no issues at all.

D.D.Machine · Jun 27, 2020

Pete Deal said:
I'm in the same situation. I used an American Rotary (brand) 3 phase buck/boost transformer. I think what you have is called an open delta configuration. The question is what are your leg to leg voltages? These should be in the 210-240 range. Probably others more knowledgeable than me will chime in but the ground to phase voltages are generally not real predictable with a phase converter. The machine does not use ground other than for safety so does not care what the ground voltage is relative to the phases. The tech just finished starting my S1000 and he also noticed that the ground to phase voltage on mine was not super consistent. The machine doesn't care.

Regarding where to install the transformer you can either buck the single phase or the 3 phase. I did the 3 phase too.

The problem with bucking the single phase, at least in my case, is that my RPC is 30hp and the single phase supply is 125A. This makes for a big transformer and more big wiring. In bucking the 3 phase to only the machine I only needed a small transformer about the size of a lunch box.

you only need a lunchbox size in the single phase side …. your only dealing with 30V and 125 amps … your going from 240v to 210V

Acme transformer
T-1-37922
Primary 240x480
secondary 24-48
2 KVA 1 phase

that's the one I have been using for 5+ years ,, it gets warm by the end of the day but has never got hot ,,,

Pete Deal · Jun 27, 2020

Maybe so but this was easier for me. My RPC is run in 1-1/2" EMT, and 1/0 cable. I would have had to rip all that out and redo. Much easier to insert the transformer in the 3/4" conduit and 10ga I was running new. Not to mention the rest of my shop is running off the 3 phase panel and is happy with it as is.

And in LMM's case apparently he has already bought the transformers so why should he throw those out and buy another transformer? Makes no sense.

Your point would be a good one if I was starting over.

drcoelho · Jun 27, 2020

D.D.Machine said:
you only need a lunchbox size in the single phase side …. your only dealing with 30V and 125 amps … your going from 240v to 210V

Acme transformer
T-1-37922
Primary 240x480
secondary 24-48
2 KVA 1 phase

that's the one I have been using for 5+ years ,, it gets warm by the end of the day but has never got hot ,,,

30V ??? Don't believe so, normally you would have 240V on the single phase side, and 208-230V on the three phase side. Generally speaking, amperage will be higher on the single phase side, so you would need somewhat bigger wiring and therefore larger transformer on the single phase side. My recommendation would be step-down transformer on the three phase side but only if needed...thus I would run the Speedio and check the readings before worrying about the transformer.

drcoelho · Jun 27, 2020

LMM said:
Thank you for the info.

My line to line voltages are between 213-218 no load. Sorry, should have included that info.

Pete, when you say you are in the same situation, do you just mean you’re using the same setup or are you having issues?

I actually have North American 20hp and 15hp units combined. This is adding to the complexity of this in that the two are not “liking each other.” Phases match etc. though I am going to double-check ALL of the wiring again this morning. We were getting an over-current error yesterday on spindle speed change once it starts doing jumps of 2K. I finally realized we were actually only running off the 15hp unit only. Among other things.

Once I have that sorted out as well, it’ll be running off a total of 35hp.

I forgot to mention, this is a high torque machine, so even though the breaker might be a puny 30 amp... the instantaneous current can get way up there. Need lots of copper to eat all that up.

Thanks again for the info! Also, far as I know, you’re right Pete, a single phase buck in front of the RPC has to be sized to the RPC load and machine load. (Based on my reading...) this isn’t necessarily true in the case of the Phase Perfect I gather. I also didn’t want to drop my entire 3 phase down if I didn’t have to.

Trying to link two phase converters is very problematic as you are unlikely to get the synthesized 3rd leg to be completely alligned between the two phase converters and thus will have all sorts of wierdness and instabilities. You are much better off getting a bigger phase converter if you have just the one machine, or alternatively if you have two machines, run one off one phase converter and the other off the second phase converter.

Jaxian · Jun 27, 2020

My machines are not Brothers, a Doosan and Hyundai-KIA, but should be applicable anyway. You MUST be particular on some machines as to where you connect the generated leg. Like on manual machines it must not be on the starter line. Doosan told me which L not to connect the generated leg to or I would get a bunch of weird problems.

If running two RPC's you need to get the generated leg and lead and trailing legs in sync or you will all kinds of weird problems from the mismatched waves.

Not sure this applies to Brothers but it kept me from having strange errors with my controllers when my voltage load changed. Pumps on/off, tool changes, etc.

drcoelho · Jun 27, 2020

Jaxian said:
My machines are not Brothers, a Doosan and Hyundai-KIA, but should be applicable anyway. You MUST be particular on some machines as to where you connect the generated leg. Like on manual machines it must not be on the starter line. Doosan told me which L not to connect the generated leg to or I would get a bunch of weird problems.

If running two RPC's you need to get the generated leg and lead and trailing legs in sync or you will all kinds of weird problems from the mismatched waves.

Not sure this applies to Brothers but it kept me from having strange errors with my controllers when my voltage load changed. Pumps on/off, tool changes, etc.

I believe its even worse than this, as the sign wave will never properly be synchronized for the generated legs when running two parallel phase converters because there is no synchronization of the sign wave on the generated leg, just all round a problematic approach...much better off just having a single phase converter and avoid these issues altogether.

LMM · Jun 28, 2020

Thank you everyone for the advice. The two phase converters are rotary phase converters and unless I am mistaken it is very common to run them together in order to bump up capacity. Unless I’m mistaken... all ears on that. I do totally agree on the open delta transformer solution. Ideally I’d be running an single 3 phase isolation transformer between the machine and phase converter(s). If ifs and buts we’re candy and nuts...

That said... So far all is well. Peter came out this morning and finished setting up the machine. I can’t say enough good things about him. The other tech Oscar as well. Nobody even “sold” me a machine... My neighbor purchased one from Peter and the machine sold itself, the bonus was having someone like Peter living in the same town!

The machine itself is a a wet dream for a geek like myself. Peter went through some of the intricacies of inputs/outputs and how they can be assigned, among other things. Ideas abound...

Pete, take a look at the manual and you’ll see those peak readings likely align with what’s in there. The high torque, and don’t quote me on this, peaks at something like 175 or so! But it’s instantaneous, which is why the breaker can be so small I think. Breakers react pretty slow. I put in oversized tranformers in so they would not be a bottleneck. It barely cost more.

Btw... It’s pretty damn amazing seeing the spindle go from 6k clockwise to 6k anti-clockwise basically instantly... If you really watch close, you can see it stop for a split second. My old machine easily took a second and a half to hit 6k and that was max rpm. Haha

Anyhow, thanks again all. Putting the vices on tomorrow.

Jaxian · Jun 28, 2020

Just a piece of information. When I bought my RPC for my CNC (I already had a 20hp for my manuals) I got a American Rotary ADX 75hp. When I was looking at the specs I noticed that they sold a 150hp, 300hp, 600hp, 900hp. I said to the tech on the phone "my god those must be gigantic motors!". He said no, 75hp is the largest individual generator, after that they just group them up. So 150hp is two 75hp, 300hp is four 75hp and so on.

He said they just got to be problematic bigger than 75hp. Too expensive to make, too little demand, less efficiency, etc. I asked how they grouped them and he said they just have a multi control module you put with them and you are good to go. I said that was too bad as I might need more later and wouldn't want to retrofit everything and he said they could just sell me the multi control box and I could add another one to my existing system. Everything else would stay just the same.

You could call and ask them if you could just buy one of those boxes. None of their stuff is that expensive so couldn't hurt to ask. Not sure if it can run non-matched RPC generators units though.

drcoelho · Jun 28, 2020

Jaxian said:
Just a piece of information. When I bought my RPC for my CNC (I already had a 20hp for my manuals) I got a American Rotary ADX 75hp. When I was looking at the specs I noticed that they sold a 150hp, 300hp, 600hp, 900hp. I said to the tech on the phone "my god those must be gigantic motors!". He said no, 75hp is the largest individual generator, after that they just group them up. So 150hp is two 75hp, 300hp is four 75hp and so on.

He said they just got to be problematic bigger than 75hp. Too expensive to make, too little demand, less efficiency, etc. I asked how they grouped them and he said they just have a multi control module you put with them and you are good to go. I said that was too bad as I might need more later and wouldn't want to retrofit everything and he said they could just sell me the multi control box and I could add another one to my existing system. Everything else would stay just the same.

You could call and ask them if you could just buy one of those boxes. None of their stuff is that expensive so couldn't hurt to ask. Not sure if it can run non-matched RPC generators units though.

This approach seems much more sensible to me, with common control you get good sync on the generated leg.

2outof3 · Jun 28, 2020

LMM said:
Thank you everyone for the advice. The two phase converters are rotary phase converters and unless I am mistaken it is very common to run them together in order to bump up capacity. Unless I’m mistaken... all ears on that. I do totally agree on the open delta transformer solution. Ideally I’d be running an single 3 phase isolation transformer between the machine and phase converter(s). If ifs and buts we’re candy and nuts...

That said... So far all is well. Peter came out this morning and finished setting up the machine. I can’t say enough good things about him. The other tech Oscar as well. Nobody even “sold” me a machine... My neighbor purchased one from Peter and the machine sold itself, the bonus was having someone like Peter living in the same town!

The machine itself is a a wet dream for a geek like myself. Peter went through some of the intricacies of inputs/outputs and how they can be assigned, among other things. Ideas abound...

Pete, take a look at the manual and you’ll see those peak readings likely align with what’s in there. The high torque, and don’t quote me on this, peaks at something like 175 or so! But it’s instantaneous, which is why the breaker can be so small I think. Breakers react pretty slow. I put in oversized tranformers in so they would not be a bottleneck. It barely cost more.

Btw... It’s pretty damn amazing seeing the spindle go from 6k clockwise to 6k anti-clockwise basically instantly... If you really watch close, you can see it stop for a split second. My old machine easily took a second and a half to hit 6k and that was max rpm. Haha

Anyhow, thanks again all. Putting the vices on tomorrow.

Thank you for the opportunity and the kind words about our team. I hope to see the machine in action over the next few weeks.

Thank you again.

Andy Dukes
Yamazen

eaglemike · Jun 28, 2020

I'm pretty sure you are going to continue to be amazed as time goes on. As I'm sure you can tell, they are designed to be easy to work on and maintain - although I've never really had to do anything to mine that matters. Clean the filter can for the (dual contact) spindle flush once in a great while, change the batteries (just 3 AA, easy to do) and changed the grease canister after quite a while. That's it. It's easy to put the red, yellow, green cycle lights on there. It's easy to add wifi drag-n-drop program management. There"s a lot of other stuff too. I just use them, and they just work.
Good luck!!!!

Pete Deal · Jun 28, 2020

I just happened on the American Rotary Step Down Transformers. These are true 3 phase transformers but they are auto transformers not isolation transformers so they are still pretty small. Seems like a good solution, unless you are putting a 3 phase system in new then probably what DD Machine suggests and stepping the single phase down first would be best.

Also, I bought my S1000 never having seen one in the flesh until it arrived. All I had was good past experience with my old machine.

New Brother S700X1

Plastic

Stainless

Plastic

Stainless

Titanium

Plastic

Titanium

Titanium

Stainless

Titanium

Stainless

Stainless

Stainless

Stainless

Plastic

Stainless

Stainless

Titanium

Stainless

Titanium

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