A new cast iron 3 axis challenger weighing in at over 600lbs! - Page 10
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  1. #181
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    #177/#178
    I wish those motors weight a lot compared to our we also use aluminium in the motor body to help dissipate the heat it generates. Also making a compact 110mmX110mm format make our head assembly more compact than just buying a fanuc motor. The motor shown right now is a 1.5kw we are waiting for the stator and rotor and the motor body to come in and the 5hp VFD.
    #179
    Well we wanted to at least have something out there to gauge what would people think. Yea i have no idea why the copper was in it tho that issue is solved with better cam. As for the background we are getting a bigger white backdrop to help. Indeed all good point and will be noted.
    #180
    My apologies I can't believe i forgot to add the ½ thank you as for the taking money part we are doing Gen 2 before we kick start which fixes some of the bugs and kinks we found in gen 1 and 1.5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yardbird View Post
    ......
    Personally I think and have thought for while now that biker should run this board. My 2 cents...

    Brent
    Quote Originally Posted by machtool View Post
    Whilst I kind of concur. Kevin's experience & input shouldn't be bogged down with the responsibility of being a Mod..........

    Thanks, but no thanks!

    I'd become a tyrannical dictator if I was moderating this forum. First to go would be all the hobby junk threads. Pretty soon the Fadal and Haas threads would be poofed. I'd get'er down to just top quality, first rate machine tools and accessories in no time. Of course there would only a handful of threads and posts left since the good stuff always runs and good tooling always performs. Milacron probably would not be good with that!

    OMG, the power I would wield! If I watched movies I'm sure I'd know some pretty good lines I could quote here.

    I wonder, can a mod edit their likes count? The more I think about this......

  3. #183
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    If there's going to be a moderator for this forum, I think he or she should be chosen by some form of machinist bloodsport. Perhaps like from this scene in the movie "Dodgeball", without progressing to rubber balls.

    YouTube

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  5. #184
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    How well does it push a drill bit? how well does it push a insert thru coolant drill bit (my everyday size is 13/16)? what about size range of rota broach? 100 ipm seems snail slow for rapid. I am not anti stepper, but feel if 100 is fast you need bigger, much bigger, steppers and volts. does it have a thrust feed back with servo option, with a max thrust set per tool? What is coolant pressure running at, is it mist or straight flood? 4 th axis, even just a drive wired in? do we get to choose color, I think a candy would be nice-- coolant lifts even good paint, so go bold with automotive.

    "digitally controlled" stepper is sales speak - they are digital by nature. or spice it up and say dynamic digital if you are running something like a gecko - laugh all you want, but our shop as 6 steppers, and the two that had "industrial" drives abb and a parker both now are on geckos. (torch height controller, and a propolene torch height actuator.


    video of cutting steel, steel is real.


    It does look better than before. might try and find a way to get screws covered. pictures of whole machine, video walk thrus. And, even if you must not acknowledge to your investor get the castings done in north America, you will not save money having foreign (different continent) until you have mass quantities.

  6. #185
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    As far as steppers / servos, I would strongly recommend looking into Clearpath servos. They cost like a stepper, are controlled like a stepper, but perform as a servo. Self contained closed loop. Lots of Youtube videos on them. If I ever bought a machine with steppers I'd swap them out for Clearpaths.

  7. #186
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    Would the class of customer interested in this machine really give a hoot where the components were cast??

    Stuart

  8. #187
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    Can somebody help me on the selling point of slapping a 5hp motor on this thing? Or is that a ploy to attract the uneducated? I don't have a degree in mechanical engineering, but a PHD in common sense. A typical manual mill weighs around 2500 pounds and has a 2hp motor, why have a 5hp motor on a 600 pound toy? As for that 35% cut or whatever it was any motor I ever checked with an amp probe idles around there at no load. You could have made that demonstrated cut with a die grinder.

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  10. #188
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    ^ HP is a function of tourque and speed, speed largely does not matter one fuck to the rest of the machine.

    If a bridgeport has say enough iron in it to handle the torque of a cut at 400rpm, it could handle the same cutting tourque at 40,000rpm. Hence for a given mass of machine adding more hp as spindle speed increases works out great! Now try gearing that hp down and bad things happen, but largely speaking, if you have a 1hp spindle doing a job at 200 rpm, the same machine iron wise would be just as happy at 10hp and 2000rpm and you can keep scaling this up and up so long as you keep things well balanced and don't have a spindle setup like a Bridgeport that limits you.

    My main concern with adding a 5hp motor would be the machines power requirements, not sure what your stds are there, but here in the uk a applicance over 3Kw is then above our std 3 pin plug range and your into the kinda sockets whilst still readily available are not going to be in most peoples garages as std. Same again if you need three phase power. 5Hp seams a lot for a 20 taper too. May be far better to stick with a real world solid 3 hp spindle.

  11. #189
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    Let's see....600 lbs....Hmmm:
    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Quikrete...0180/100318511

    Qty (8) bags at $4.89 each = $29.34

    So "over 600 lbs" can easily be had for under $30.

  12. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    My main concern with adding a 5hp motor would be the machines power requirements, not sure what your stds are there, but here in the uk a applicance over 3Kw is then above our std 3 pin plug range and your into the kinda sockets whilst still readily available are not going to be in most peoples garages as std.
    The minimum circuit here is typically 110 volt 15 amp, standard wall receptacle. That would handle a 2hp motor. In a newer house in the city with access to natural gas there typically aren't any prewired plug ins above that amount. In fact in that case the only 220 volt circuit is a 30 amp or so that runs the air conditioner and is hard wired. On the flip side a house in the country that is all electric will have multiple 220 volt 30-50 amp plug ins for electric stoves, clothes dryers, water heaters, and central heating units.

  13. #191
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    interesting read.

    The machine is intersting, but i think your hopes and dreams will be crushed if you launch it the ways its described here.

    Some thoughts:

    - kickstarter: NO. kickstarter is fine for $60 iphone accessories, youll not sell any machines on there as the price point you are aiming - in fact i think they no longer allow anything in that price range (5kus limit?). Develop and sell it properly, forget the crown funding pipe dream on this one.

    - your features vs price point put this machine firmly in the "meh" category. For a machine to sell well, it has to offer something none else is. So, either "the same for much less money" or "much more for the same money" or a special hook noone else is offering. you have none of that. you have what looks like a decent stripped down machine for the price of a decent stripped down machine.

    - support is everything. EVERYTHING. You could easily crush tormach making the same machine for the same price, just by offering more comprehensive support. There are dozens of machines like yours on aliexpress, for less money. Noone over here buys them though, cause they arent represented. SIEG has a brilliant little VMC and matching lathe you could retail for $40k for the PAIR here - 12k bt30 spindle with atc on the mill, turret and power chuck on the lathe, siemens 808d control, ac servos, gound screws and precision linear rails, but without a good rep to stock them and stand behind them, those machines are going nowhere.

    some thoughts on your actual machine - Either do it right and raise the price, or make it cheap, small, LIGHT and functional. Heavy always makes people excited, but the reality is, these cheap machined need to go up and down stairs, through tiny doors, and in elevators. they need to be manageable.

    - if you go up, you need quality c5 ground screws, preloaded blocks and rails with an oil system, a REAL control (siemens, delta, LNC are priced viably). You need servos - good ones - an ATC carousel with 8 or more tools, and, AN ENCLOSURE. Price is with enough margin to support it with parts, and market it well. A machine like this can be priced under 20k and pull both tormach minded customers AND haas minded ones away at the same time. Remember though that people in this range almost never pay cash, so it's never about the "price". It's about the "value". Service and support needs to be impeccable.

    - if you go the reverse, strip the fluff, and make it work very well. 5k "cash" becomes the target and the stakes change completely. DDCSV2.1 control, C5 ground 1505 screws and preloaded 15mm linear blocks from taiwan, nema23 steppers and 4 axis drive from leadshine, 110v single phase Delta VFD-E running a teknomotor 400w 12k motor and ER32 cartridge spindle with a 2 speed belt, central grease system and good metal way covers. The frame of the machine would be 200-250lbs cast iron gantry like your current one, and have 300x200 travel. Make the machine frame very slick, stylish, clean. Cables run internally, Integrated LED lighting, a gopro mount, things that arent expensive to include, but add big appeal to the buyer.

    That's basically the Mill version of the Xzero mini raptor, specced and priced about the same. Profit will be tight, but your support will be "good, but minimal". At this price, a great machine for less money is more critical than comprehensive support.

    So skip this middle ground, you're too expensive for "hobby" and too low grade for "business". It wont work.

    Alright, that's enough of my secrets Need to keep some surprises for the "new mini" :P

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  15. #192
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    Maybe tormach is competion in entry level, but gravel gears, sloppy build and mach control makes it a no go for anyone looking for a small machine with real world use - or any use. Most maintance machine shops I deal with would love a decent small cnc machine to add to their army of manual beast. Steel fab shops would get one just for the random pin plates (burned plate with tight hole/slot), the random counter bored stand off, the thingy that needs fixed on the anglemaster, and the bosses duck blind hinge system. Foundries could do address molds, bike shops can make a drop out, skate shops can custom build trucks. Shops that are not oem machine shops is a real market. The machine will not be running 2-3 weeks out of the month.
    If Vulcan can make said machine for sub 6, sub 7 even why complain about the price? If you paid more for your tormach or used vmc from 1982 then tough. Good controls are no longer expensive; if you are building new then why try and retro fit a seimens snail in a new machine? That is market and money, not my strong subject...
    Horsepower is relevant. A bridge port 2hp is belted down and growns with a .75 bit taking tiny bite. I do not expect a 5hp to push a bit as fast as the 25 spindles our drill has, but a 1.75" counter bore should not be out of the question. The servo/stepper have to be upped dramatically to warrant and use a 5hp to potential.
    That said, still waiting to see steel being milled, at respectable rate, on said machine.

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  17. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by memphisjed View Post
    Maybe tormach is competion in entry level, but gravel gears, sloppy build and mach control makes it a no go for anyone looking for a small machine with real world use - or any use.
    Um... no gears in a tormach, and no mach control. Sloppy build, yes, they have that.

    Most maintance machine shops I deal with would love a decent small cnc machine to add to their army of manual beast.
    This type of machine is not for a "machine shop". They would pull their hair out with it.

    ... bike shops can make a drop out, skate shops can custom build trucks. Shops that are not oem machine shops is a real market. The machine will not be running 2-3 weeks out of the month.
    2-3 hours a month is more the target of this type of machine. Well, maybe more than that, but not much. a prototype here and there, or a batch of a 20 parts every 2 months. That's what people do with these machines. Anyone who does more makes money on it, and will buy a new or used industrial machine to suit.

    If Vulcan can make said machine for sub 6, sub 7 even why complain about the price? If you paid more for your tormach or used vmc from 1982 then tough. Good controls are no longer expensive; if you are building new then why try and retro fit a seimens snail in a new machine? That is market and money, not my strong subject...
    As his machine stands right now, any tormach is better value, and any (working) 80's vmc is better value. He needs to reposition up or down the market if he wants to be a better option than those. He is sitting in this murky middle ground that unfortunately has no appeal. I know this from experience.

    Here is the Sieg I mentioned above. If I have to finance a machine, what makes me want to buy his machine for $250/month when I can get this for $600 and put out 10 times the parts? (he said his current price is 9k, and once he puts in usable ball screws and accounts for being over optimistic, more like 11k. Sub 6 retail on what he specced is not happening)

    imag1169.jpg
    imag1168.jpg
    imag1165.jpg

  18. #194
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    #184 memphisjed
    Its drills decently it just that we haven't had many drilling ops on it to really give you a solid answer. Tho we are planning to make a swiss cube so it would def be a interesting part to make lots of drilling cycles. As for the rotabroach wouldn't it be easier just to interpolate the holes ? Biggest drill you can fit in the drill chuck we plan on using with the iso 20 is 10mm. I do agree with the 100 ipm rapids are slow and we are working trying to fix it for gen2. As for thrust feedback it is not a planned feature. For coolant pressure we plan to use either a 1/4hp or ½ hp coolant pump the head pressure would either be 5m at 100m^3/h or 4.5 at 200 m ^3/h. We plan to offer mist, flood and TSC. The controller will support up to 4 axis and we still need to design and build the rotary. Granted the 4th axis ready option will be available in which we wire in the 4th drive in preparation for the rotary table. As for color probably not we plan to do a black powder coat on the all the castings. Tho maybe something that could be done for the kickstarter units. The drive we are using is similar to a geeko. The steel video is coming up we are working to get more aggressive tool paths and waiting for the 5 hp motor to get in. Thank you we are still trying to talk to some local foundry's.

    #185 memphisjed
    Of course we will consider the clear paths. There not bad at all. I used them on some school projects and they worked quite well.

    #186 Dualkit
    The reasoning behind the 5hp motor is that we are driving the motor and spindle in a 1 to 1 gear ratio and do not have the luxury of using a belt reduction or gear reduction. So in order to have decent torque at higher rpm we gotta increase the hp to achieve it.

    #186 adama
    Yes we realized slapping the 5hp motor on it would result in some power cap issues. There is a way around this by derating the motor in the VFD by programming the VFD to use less amps which in turns reduces power. That would be an no cost option that we will offer to make sure the mill can be used in more scenarios and places.

    #191 ihavenofish
    We are still on the line about the kickstarter the max price is 10k on kickstarter
    As for either going up or going down in class let's say we went down i think you may have missed that post earlier and i have copied it here. These are the updated machine specs and will be the ones we will be going forward with.

    The current kickstarter early bird pricing is currently looking to be around $3000 to $3500 and normal kickstarter pricing for the machine would be $3500 to $4000. With the full MSRP going to set around $4800-4999 The kickstarter will most likely be launched late spring early summer in 2019.
    Machine spec and standard features
    12 x 12 x 12in (300 x 300 x 300mm) travel
    20mm precision ball screws
    20mm precision linear guides
    220v single phase power
    12000 RPM ISO-20 spindle
    ABEC 7 bearings standard(2x7005,3005)front,(2x16005)back
    Designed by a veteran machine tool expert who has worked contracts for several big name Machine tool companies.
    3.7KW (5HP) RMS or S1 AC spindle motor
    Designed by a veteran machine tool expert who has worked contracts for several big name Machine tool companies.
    Custom all in one control panel that is a stand alone controller with lcd screen and buttons for machine operation ( accepts fanuc style gcode)
    Cast iron frame optimized for low weight and high stiffness
    Compact design for minimal footprint size
    Designed in the USA , Assembled in the USA, and Tested in the USA.

    Upgrades/options currently in the works:
    110v compatible version (requires a reduced power spindle motor)
    BT20 Spindle With Rigid tapping
    Flood coolant
    Stand/Enclosure
    ATC (automatic tool changer)
    High RPM spindle
    Thru spindle coolant
    Part Probe and Tool length probe.

  19. #195
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    A comment on the horsepower thing.
    I see quite a few dumbass comments here, don't listen to them. 3.7KW is excessive to the extreme.

    My Brother TC225 has 3.2kw at 3000rpm, and 2.2kw at 6000rpm. That's a bt30 machine that could turn an entire tormach 770 iron frame to chips inside 40 minutes. it can rigid tap m16 in steel and munch 6061 at 15+ cubic inches a minute. Those operations push its 25/30mm rails, 20mm ball screws and 4000lb frame pretty hard.

    You aren't going to swing big face mills on your little machine or hog out moulds with a 3/4" bit or spin a 1" drill in steel. Forget the people that talk about that crap. You'll be using mostly smaller end mills running adaptive HSM type cutting paths. For your spindle size (20 taper), and target machining, a 750w or 1kw ac servo at 6000rpm (12000rpm with a 2:1 pulley) is where I would start. It will also give you free rigid tapping and spindle orientation for later use in ATC. 750w also keeps you in 110v range with peak current limits set.

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  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by VulcanMachineCo View Post
    The current kickstarter early bird pricing is currently looking to be around $3000 to $3500 and normal kickstarter pricing for the machine would be $3500 to $4000. With the full MSRP going to set around $4800-4999 The kickstarter will most likely be launched late spring early summer in 2019.

    Decent rails and ground screws will run you $2000. That spindle you're getting for what, $750? (you might want to talk to microlab spindle in Taiwan btw)

    $1000-$1500 for the frame machined and painted ($2-$3/lb).

    Plus shipping.

    And don't forget to add trumpy's tarrifs onto that.

    Numbers aren't making any sense to me here. What am I missing?

    I'm not knocking you here, I'm in the same business, I know it can be done, I just don't think you have things sorted out well.

  22. #197
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    Good luck. It seems like you are still trying to figure out what your customers want.

    I can tell you I sunk 8 or 9K into a benchtop mill because I couldn't' find the machine I wanted for that price. I wasted a ton of my own time building and assembling and all that to make it work. At the end of the day, it's still a small bench top mill limited by it's small 7" Y travel and low rigidity. It's a PM25 so I have about 22" x 7" on the table. I would trade a foot of X travel to get another inch or two on the Y. In real life, for the parts I make, a machine that had x and y travels of similar dimension would be fine.

    I ended up with an enclosure, flood coolant, cnc conversion, and a 3KW spindle with 2.2KW vfd. The enclosure was poorly done, but still very useful. Flood is awesome. The spindle upgrade allows me to make parts a lot faster. My stock spindle was only 2500 RPM, common on benchtop machines. I can now cut metal 8-10 times faster than I could before.

    If I had to say minimum specs for the machine I wish I could have bought, it would be 10" x 10" travel on table, have a spindle that has at least 8K RPM available, SERVOS, great lighting, an enclosure, simple flood coolant, and all the electronics just plug in and work no problem, I can run MACH3 with the machine, runs on 110V. There's 30 more things that could be added, but those core things would have gotten me to buy.

    That would do a lot for the type of people you seem to be targeting in my opinion.

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    #195 ihavenofish
    We looked at that route and there not enough torque to run a 1/2in carbide endmill thru steel. Well at least with the cost effective solutions that's why we are opting to build our own motor. It cost around the same and delivers the same amount umph. The issue isn't the 12k rpm its just making the the full range of rpm usable and having the high end rpm have enough torque so you can machine all materials. As for the stock version of the machine we won't have an encoder on it and will rely on SVC to help with the low end rpms If you get the BT20 spindle we will install the encoder and the PG card in motor and vfd. We do plan on running a 60mm face mill at the minimum.
    #196 ihavenofish
    The stock will run rolled C7 components and that is primarily the reason why we were able to hit the said price range. If you do order servos We will bump to at a minimum C5 ground ball screws. As for the spindle and the motor we been getting help from a former engineer that actually designed and made haas’s spindle and worked at deawoo and doosan for sometime. The spindle is running the petal style clamps and it run about 400 to 500 dollars. Since its a half cartridge we optimized the castings to hold the upper bearings. As for the frame we are looking at about 1.5 dollars a kilo or about 70 cents per lbs. The machining right now is under talks to determine what price and qty breaks but we know how much it would be for a one off so it can only go lower. And of course trumpy tax has been accounted for. Also keep in mind we are using our own custom air cylinder as well. So really the only thing that is off the shelf for this thing is the linear rails, ballscrew, VFD, controller, and small stuff. Its not bad Just like the earlier posts suggest we needed to refocus our efforts in how to reduce cost so to do so we went from offer the shelf spindle and motor to ours. As for the controller It's not mach or linux. It's just like normal gcode panels on the bigger machines. Since we didn't have to pay for a real computer and a motion control system or a windows license and software license that helped reduced the part cost. Our controller isn't bad 4 axis, fpga ,dual spindle support and a 7 in lcd screen with a button matrix. Pretty much blows the common break outs and stuff out of the water. As for shipping we done the math its 2 to 3k to ship a container from china land to the states and we can fit up to 40 or 50 machines on one 40 ft container. With all the parts need to make them work so shipping wise it a very very little increase.
    #197 patrick31
    Yea we do think we narrowed down what we want to do and are tweaking the gen 2 machine to that vision. As for Gen 2 version in which we posted the specs a little up what would you think ? Its not a bad machine spec wise.

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    if you spent the money for horsepower to sling big bits, then bycosh you should be able to sling big bits.
    Vulcan, cut and paste specs need proof read! designed by sales speak sales speak dude line is repeated. Hat in hand, yall need to wear your ties a little straighter and a little tighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VulcanMachineCo View Post
    #195 ihavenofish
    We looked at that route and there not enough torque to run a 1/2in carbide endmill thru steel. Well at least with the cost effective solutions that's why we are opting to build our own motor. It cost around the same and delivers the same amount umph. The issue isn't the 12k rpm its just making the the full range of rpm usable and having the high end rpm have enough torque so you can machine all materials. As for the stock version of the machine we won't have an encoder on it and will rely on SVC to help with the low end rpms If you get the BT20 spindle we will install the encoder and the PG card in motor and vfd. We do plan on running a 60mm face mill at the minimum.

    60mm face mill? Half inch end mill in steel? The limiting factors there are NOT spindle power. It will be the spindle interface and the frame. A 750w ac servo will happily cut hrc32 4140 steel in an HSM strategy with a 1/2" end mill at 1 cubic inch per minute. If the ISO20 spindle can handle it - which is questionable.

    #196 ihavenofish
    The stock will run rolled C7 components and that is primarily the reason why we were able to hit the said price range.
    c7 rolled screws like the ones on ebay? Skip. You just lost all of your customers. Every one. I mean, assuming you actually tried to deliver that. The second you receive them from the factory and try to fit them you'll be on the phone with the local scrapper and making desperate calls to all the major ball screw makers. I can tell you already, half the screws wont be straight, 90% wont have usable end machining, and that's on top of just being very poorly made in general.

    Even a $3200 sieg kx1 has ground c5 screws. Every tormach has ground screws. Every novakon. It is mandatory on a mill for more reasons that just "absolute precision". It's more important than linear rails, and cast iron, and spindle speed, and power. Without them you don't have a mill, you have a low grade hobby router.

    Even the old xzero mini raptor "hobby router" has c5 TBI rolled screws of a reasonable quality and it was $2400 complete, with a solid 6061 aluminium frame machined in Toronto worth 1/3 of that number - and that's all with George's buying power, which you do not have. My "new mini" has ground screws (NSK compact FA in the prototypes for now) and this is still "just" a light weight router that does well in aluminium hsm.

    The benchmark for machines in this price range today is a long way from the diy conversions of 10 years ago.

    Good luck, but from everything you've written, you are well out of your depth with this.


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