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  1. #241
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    If you want an affordable pro-grade machine I'd go with the HSK, but I'd also upgrade other things until you're in the $30k to $60k price point (with 5 axis). For high-end hobby / pro-sumer BT-30 should be more than good enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VulcanMachineCo View Post
    #236 ihavenofish
    I do agree on HSK being the future. After looking threw some designs and such it seems that a HSK taper tool holder would be more costly then a ISO/BT/CAT due to having more complex areas to be machined ? Is this a wrong thought ? How cheap are they compared to the 30 taper tooling? I bought some decently good BT30 for like 30 dollars a pop with a pull stud and shipping.
    You have to compare apples to apples to begin with. A techniks iso30 runs in the $120-$150 range, and an hsk63f runs $150-$180. Not far apart. This is the lower price threshold for guaranteed, balanced, high quality tooling. My friend bough a "6 pack" (yes, in a beer like case) of hsk tooling for his scm router and it was only around $160cdn per tool if I recall.

    Your $30 BT30 tool does not yet have a comparable "cheap HSK". This is partly because it is not produced in enough volume, compared to BT30, and partly because there is no demand for "lower grade" hsk tooling. All hsk tooling right now is for ultra high speed and precision.

    Here is one of semar's stainless steel tools for 90 euros in small volumes. HSK 63F ER32 Toolholder + Balanced Nut | DamenCNC B.V.

    And the semar ISO30 for 9 euros less ISO30 ER32 Toolholder + Pullstud | DamenCNC B.V.

    HSK will always be a little more I think, because it is dual contact and that requires more care than a basic steep taper. Look at big plus dual contact BT30, they are also extremely expensive. BUT, if the demand was there, smaller "good enough" HSK tools I think can come way down.

    On the gripper, well, that's a bit of a red herring. If you go to the rohm website, hsk and sk grippers cost pretty close to the same. Expensive yes, but about the same. So an hsk gripper equivalent to a "cheap" bt3 gripper should cost a similar amount. They are both just 4-6 hardened petals, a retainer and a drawbar. Someone just has to commit to making them in volume. Of course, you can always just do a ball gripper.... :P

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    it has begun I guess....


    YS HSK63f for $60.

    New HSK63F ER32 70L Tool Holder ER32 Collet Chuck Wood Machine Tools USA SELL | eBay

    YS HSK32E for $58.

    Stainless Steel HSK30E ER16/ER20M Collet Chuck Tool Holder for CNC High Speed Milling Machine -in Tool Holder from Tools on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

    YS was the spearhead behind the cheap "but good" BT30 and CAT40 tools all over ebay 5-6 years ago. I contacted them ages ago, They wanted $20us each for 20 custom SK40(cat40) tool holders - was closer to $40 with air shipping. So, I expect it is completely feasible to have sub $50 HSK25 or HSK32 holders that aren't meant for 40krpm and 0.00005" runout.

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    I doubt Vulcan wants to get into making their own spindles at this point. Off the shelf the HSK63F spindle is probably going to cost around $4500 on its own, which kind of breaks a $5k price point for the machine. Could be done on a $60k machine.

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    I feel sorry for your "mentor" he maybe knows what he's talking about, gives you advice, you come here for advice, some good, some so far from the mark it's funny, the you go back to your "mentor" with a new direction based on posts here, or on other sites, and the end result his head ends up spinning in total confusion.

    I think you mentioned an investor, soak them for all you can before it ineviteably implodes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    I doubt Vulcan wants to get into making their own spindles at this point. Off the shelf the HSK63F spindle is probably going to cost around $4500 on its own, which kind of breaks a $5k price point for the machine. Could be done on a $60k machine.
    He IS making his own spindle. That's the point here.

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    To the OP - vulcan - ...
    somehow the most important costs and issues have been lost.

    It is very very hard to support a g-code driven industrial machine. Aka expensive.
    There are more than 16 million variations of legal gcode in making a simple part.

    One with zero industrial features like screw compensation,
    or rigid tapping.

    I don´t doubt You can mechanically build and assemble some sets of hw with more/less working router/mill features.

    ++
    Look at skyfire.
    Look at syil.
    Install a 12 mm drill rod/gage pin in your spindle, push/pull with your hand.
    If the gage pin deflects more than 0.02 mm, you will never machine steel with carbide, at any efficiency and accuracy.

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  9. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    He IS making his own spindle. That's the point here.
    Nahhh Ahhh … *

    Bloke has zero grinding equipment.

    _____________________________________________

    * ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Nahhh Ahhh … *

    Bloke has zero grinding equipment.

    _____________________________________________

    * ;-)
    Grinding? Pft, what is this the 80's? Hard turning is where its at man!


    I assume he's having the spindle made by someone in china, but he said they are designing it and not just buying a proven tested off the shelf model. WHY they are designing one from scratch? Not sure really...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    Grinding? Pft, what is this the 80's? Hard turning is where its at man!
    YuuuuuP that's right, just ship me your ohhh so 80's Studer grinders to me (to be humanely scrapped)…


    C/o Molly Ringwald,
    1985 Breakfast Club Drive,
    Cowabunga County,
    Raising Arizona 85736

    'cuz Chinese hard turning is totally rad and "Lit AF" .

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  13. #251
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    Why would Chinese hard turning be any worse than American hard turning? They should both suck equally.

    :P

    Actually, I did a plan for my spindle shaft to be hard turned. It was viable as an in house production plan to a point. But Now my spindle is smaller and the shaft is actually a lot like a tool holder in construction... soooo... why not treat it like one and send it to one of the many skilled companies that make those?

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    Hey guys we went back to the drawing board ( again) after playing with some different styles we are finally at a version that is going to be a close representation of the final kickstarter mill there are some noticeable changes
    We changed the Preloads on our linear systems from medium to heavy
    We changed from 16mm C7 double nut ball screws to 20mm C5 double nut ball screws
    Linear rails went from 15mm to 25mm
    Over all travels has changed
    X is now 330mm
    Y is now 220mm
    Z is now 340mm
    New Gantry design reduces moving mass while maintaining compactness and increases the z rigidity
    Spindle motor is side mounted vs front mounted to keep it close to the linear rails.
    Gas springs have been added to the Z as a counter balance
    We are sticking to the ISO 20/ Bt20 spindle for now we may raise the RPM max to 14000 rpm or 15000 rpm.
    Pricing target has changed we redid all the math and to release this machine MSRP under 5k is literal suicide.
    Here is what we are going to shoot for on the kickstarter
    Early bird (3 units) - 4,900
    Batch 1 (6 units) - 5,300
    Batch 2 (12 units) - 5,800
    Batch 3 (24 units) - 6,200
    With msrp around 6800-7200
    This would also include the kickstarter fees and so the only additional backers have to pay is shipping.
    What do y’all think?
    render-1.jpg
    rend2.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rend-3.jpg   rend2.jpg   render-1.jpg  

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  17. #253
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    I'd say there's another thread called "SwissMak" that you should read a few times...

    SwissMak Anyone Know What Happened

    I'd also say that the base that incorporates your "Y" travel has a stiffness mismatch to the rest of the system, and could stand to be thicker and include tapered sides (like a truncated baseball "home plate") rather than a "T".

    You could have an optional tool changer carousel opposite the spindle motor to allow better balance of mass during rapid "Z" movements. Made to drop, pivot in, retrieve old tool, drop, spin to the new tool, raise, then out and up to clearance height. An eight tool capacity plate and drive mechanism should have about the right mass.

    Or maybe a linear bar with room for four or five holders - would be simpler.

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  19. #254
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    And was the pictured model updated to show the change to 25mm linear rails? Just guessing from the scaling, but those look closer to 15mm than 25mm, otherwise this thing is bigger/heavier than I thought...

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    As they say better IS better...

    I think part of the problem with this design is that it sits on a bench or table.

    Big bridge style machines rely in large part on a really solid foundation. Hence how their T floor plans works.


    The "Back side" is really interesting.

    Because of the lack of foundation looking at this thing I can't help but feel that I want to tip the thing on it's back or rotate the whole spindle assembly through 90 degrees to create a bench top horizontal of some kind. That way the casting itself adds rigidity as a foundation of sorts and does not rely on a wooden bench or table for functional rigidity.


    Just want to twist and recess more of the gubbins and spindle assembly into more of a three sided / three walled casting. Kinda like the carcass of a wardrobe.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


    Mentioning the name kickstarter (especially after the Swissmak "Thread" makes me want reach for a bucket. )…


    I think you are better off building your own (fairer and more realistic ) rule set for funding time lines than the conventional kickstarter model.

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    #253 Milland
    Yes I been following their progress and it seems the trump taxes hit him very hard and he made some mistakes along the way. We are tying to avoid some of those mistakes by only doing the final assembly and testing on the machines. The machining has been out sourced for kickstater batches to reduce possible hold ups in production. We know it will take about 3 to 4 months to cast ,machine, heat treat,paint and ship all the parts needed for the mill. We would need 2 months to test and assemble the 5 pre production units we plan to make to make sure the machining is done correctly and test our assembly procedure. In addition to that we would need about 2 months to DFM the castings and to design and test the options. so add about 2 months of slack and accounting for things that could happen we are looking at a delivery window of 10 months at worst 9 months at best. We also limited the amount of low cost units to make sure its not suicide to do this.

    Hmm Ill take note of that when we finalize the mill. They above renders allow us to reuse the base and table ( to reduce cost air freight is expensive)
    The final version will have a beefer base and a beefer table. Here is a picture of the Gen 2 base and table.
    capture1234.jpg
    As for the tool changer We have an idea we could have a side mount style one mounted to the back of the machine. And since the middle of the gantry is hollow we could fit the pneumatic and electrical for the tool changer in the middle. The current plan is to have a rack or hat style mount in between the gantry and have a air cylinder push it out and use the table as a hard endstop. tho that idea does sound good. The custom spindle servo motor that we have coming in is about 24 lbs. which may work. Ill fiddle around and see what we end up with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    As they say better IS better...

    I think part of the problem with this design is that it sits on a bench or table.

    Big bridge style machines rely in large part on a really solid foundation. Hence how their T floor plans works.


    The "Back side" is really interesting.

    Because of the lack of foundation looking at this thing I can't help but feel that I want to tip the thing on it's back or rotate the whole spindle assembly through 90 degrees to create a bench top horizontal of some kind. That way the casting itself adds rigidity as a foundation of sorts and does not rely on a wooden bench or table for functional rigidity.


    Just want to twist and recess more of the gubbins and spindle assembly into more of a three sided / three walled casting. Kinda like the carcass of a wardrobe.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


    Mentioning the name kickstarter (especially after the Swissmak "Thread" makes me want reach for a bucket. )…


    I think you are better off building your own (fairer and more realistic ) rule set for funding time lines than the conventional kickstarter model.
    We are currently debating on wither or not to have a cast stand or have a Mini VMC version that would have a much heavier base.
    as of right now the gantry is 110 kilos and the new base we are working on is about 110 kilos as well.
    Hmmm HMC wouldn't be a hard conversion only thing that would need change is the spindle mount and spindle bearings. would be a pretty cool alt config.
    I do agree we have been bickering about this for months and we really dont know how we would approach the alt method since we need an absolute min of 15 mills to even get this into production. Which we plan to set the kick starter min raise to 75000. The reason why we are choosing kickstarter is that we know the amount we need to make and we have set the min raise to MOQ kinda all works out for us.

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  24. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by VulcanMachineCo View Post
    We are currently debating on wither or not to have a cast stand or have a Mini VMC version that would have a much heavier base.
    as of right now the gantry is 110 kilos and the new base we are working on is about 110 kilos as well.
    Hmmm HMC wouldn't be a hard conversion only thing that would need change is the spindle mount and spindle bearings. would be a pretty cool alt config.
    I do agree we have been bickering about this for months and we really dont know how we would approach the alt method since we need an absolute min of 15 mills to even get this into production. Which we plan to set the kick starter min raise to 75000. The reason why we are choosing kickstarter is that we know the amount we need to make and we have set the min raise to MOQ kinda all works out for us.
    As a horizontal ish mill...

    Think of the saddle and main Z axis ways on a manual lathe but mounting the spindle on the saddle/ cross slide so you get your X and Z movement and then have the table move up and down vertically in Y. (everything relative to the spindle.). Kinda like pushing your system over onto it's back and making some adjustments / redistribution of 'Iron".


    The GroB 5 axis machines (like the 350) they have the table move up and down vertically with the spindle moving in Z (spindle axis) horizontally and X (moving in the horizontal plane).




    (There may be a different axis labeling scheme (I need to double check that).).


    With the table mounted vertically chips can fall downwards away from the workpiece. Your vertical "Y" travel is not that great.


    I believe there are some swiss small bench top mills that used to be built that way , that can switch between being a mill and a lathe.


    It means most of the iron is a rigid frame (like a horizontal lathe) and support trusses can be used to maintain the vertical table very rigidly (essentially elements would be in tension rather than compression.).


    The horizontal arrangement for a spindle is great for precision and accuracy and really smooth movement.

    In your case weight / loads would be very evenly distributed, in line and symmetric.

    That way you are not so reliant on a wooden bench etc. for good surface finishes and vibration , quality of cut and rigidity etc.

    As a product that might seem weird to "Peeps" who might be looking for a more conventional bridge mill that got shrunk in the wash (maybe) ?

    If you wanted to get really fancy you could ship with a granite slab that you could bolt and epoxy it down to if going the horizontal spindle arrangement. That might give you some flexibility with some kind of gang tooled / linear ATC arrangement or other arrangement.

    A granite base could be sourced in the USA and delivered separately to the customer where they assemble the main parts and level etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    As a horizontal ish mill...

    Think of the saddle and main Z axis ways on a manual lathe but mounting the spindle on the saddle/ cross slide so you get your X and Z movement and then have the table move up and down vertically in Y. (everything relative to the spindle.).


    The GroB 5 axis machines (like the 350) they have the table move up and down vertically with the spindle moving in Z (spindle axis) horizontally and X (moving in the horizontal plane).




    (There may be a different axis labeling scheme (I need to double check that).).


    With the table mounted vertically chips can fall downwards away from the workpiece. Your vertical "Y" travel is not that great.


    I believe there are some swiss small bench top mills that used to be built that way , that can switch between being a mill and a lathe.


    It means most of the iron is a rigid frame (like a horizontal lathe) and support trusses can be used to maintain the vertical table very rigidly (essentially elements would be in tension rather than compression.).


    The horizontal arrangement for a spindle is great for precision and accuracy and really smooth movement.

    So you are not so reliant on a bench for good surface finishes and vibration , quality of cut and rigidity etc.
    hmm maybe something we can for the 5 axis version we plan to make eventually
    The reason why our y travel isnt the greatest is because we plan to stow the tool changer in between the gantry and as a by product of that the table can move to you and the real travel is about 390 mms. but since the tool changer needs about 160mm of y travel to access both rows it kinda cuts the usable y travel. Then again maybe with the side mounted tool changer we wouldnt need to sacrifice 160 mm of y travel. still our footprint right now is about 800mm x 700mmm smaller then tormach 770m and 440 right now

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    #258 cameraman
    hmm we were also thinking about have 2 stands 1 sheet metal style that has areas that allow you fill it with sand and epxoy. or the cast iron stand which would add about 500 to 600 lbs to machine alone haha. do you think it would be a good idea to release a DIY machine stand with the machine to the people who dont want to buy one ? We have one right now that took my friend about 2 days to weld together and is holding Gen 1 right now.


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