New Chinese VMC V/S used VMC which to buy

For guys like me who are new to world VMC's and are absolutely novice when it comes to judging a VMC in its construction and life and have general parameters in mind like XYZ,controller,BOX or Linear ,spindle ,table load etc...

I have been looking to buy a VMC for last month and half have looked used as well new chinese VMC ,used VMC in my part of world are very few and if you find one ,are twice the cost of a new Chinese VMC.

I have approached few Chinese VMC manufacturers directly and have got quotes as well which look really promising.If I would go ahead to buy a Chinese VMC , would go there myself and look at the machine first

I would appreciate any criticism,advice from experienced faculty of this forum ,should buy a new Chinese VMC or used VMC

You need to specify Chinese as in mainland or Chinese as in Tiawan (ROC). There is a big difference IMHO. Machine tools from Tiawan have been around a while, getting better in quality. There are brand name manufacturers that are building machines in mainland China, but I don't think that is what you are looking at from the sounds of your post. I suggest you post the brand you are thinking about for better feedback. I have had much better results with Korean machines than form Tiawan, don't know how thy compare where you are.

This will be locked real soon anyways so not much sense in continuing.

VALVEman said:

For guys like me who are new to world VMC's and are absolutely novice when it comes to judging a VMC in its construction and life and have general parameters in mind like XYZ,controller,BOX or Linear ,spindle ,table load etc...

I have been looking to buy a VMC for last month and half have looked used as well new chinese VMC ,used VMC in my part of world are very few and if you find one ,are twice the cost of a new Chinese VMC.

I have approached few Chinese VMC manufacturers directly and have got quotes as well which look really promising.If I would go ahead to buy a Chinese VMC , would go there myself and look at the machine first

I would appreciate any criticism,advice from experienced faculty of this forum ,should buy a new Chinese VMC or used VMC

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No offense intended, but if you are completely new to VMC's what is it you would expect to make a reasoned judgement on by viewing the machine in person? Even someone familiar with machines could miss something in an inspection, more so if the machine is not under power at the time of inspection. Additionally it's the stuff that you can't see that will make your life hell if it goes wrong, electrical gremlins, cheap hardware, things not correctly aligned.
Buy the machine that fits your needs, if you aren't sure what those are, do your homework on that stuff first. For me personally I have a need that if the machine goes down (and it will at some point, they all do) I can get someone to fix it, and they can get repair parts. I don't rely on salespeople to tell me they can do it, I look at what other people have had luck with in my area (which is just a bit different than yours). That puts Asian imports nowhere near my personal list.
Here in the US I'd take used good iron over new Asian import any day. It's not to say you can't get a good one, but if it were my money and my shop on the line I would look at the the bigger picture and buy from someone who I know can support the machine.

@ RJT -I am looking machines in mainland China

Thing I have been looking for mainly is Fanuc controller for which local service is available , apart from controller BT 40 spindle for tools ,11 KW motor ,UTC ,Boxways machine .

Its a catch 22 situatuon if there were good used machines easily available in this part of world I would have preferred it over a CHINA VMC but sadly there are not and bringing a new VMC from china my self looks like an easy option.

But biggest worry is Chinese machines durability ,spares etc.

wrustle said:

This will be locked real soon anyways so not much sense in continuing.

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The machine in question, will it fit under a 7 foot "home shop" garage door?

The machine may still be "not the best", but I don't think it gets delivered in the back of a Ford Ranger.

If the machine is strictly "export only", you probably don't want it.

If the machine is being used by Chinese industry, it may be a good bet.

You could always ask ChinaHand, see if he knows what domestic industry trusts.

escott said:

Here in the US I'd take used good iron over new Asian import any day. It's not to say you can't get a good one, but if it were my money and my shop on the line I would look at the the bigger picture and buy from someone who I know can support the machine.

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I hope by 'Asian' you mean 'Mainland Chinese'. Cause we have some stuff in our shop that is made in a certain Asian country known as Japan, and it's bad ass.

All that aside, I'm not sure that this is a place where you can (or would want to) save all that much money. The Chinese can not sell a VMC for 20k that will be the same as a VMC that sells for 70K. With this kind of item, cheap labor just doesn't count for much. Example. The manufacturer will have to fit a control/servos made by fanuc or similar. They aren't going to get a 50% discount compared to whatever any other builder pays. And Fanuc uses processors made by Intel and so forth. Most of the machines we have have all Parker Hydraulics. Most VMC are all going to use a lot of off the shelf parts that anyone else can buy. And you won't get a significant discount unless you make as many machines as the established builders. They might save on crappy heat treating, crappy castings, cheap fittings, shitty inspections and alignments. This might save 20%? But then again you won't be getting the same thing.

How much is the machine budget? Can you finance? Why go for an unknown at 50K, when for 70K you can get a reasonable machine. If financed, you're looking at 100/mo more over 5 years. Also what if you don't have good service? We also have a couple machines by a famous American west coast machine tool manufacturer. Every now and again some little thing (mostly air related to the tool changer) will shut us down. I freak out if I can't get service. They usually show up within 24 hours and we're back in business. Is saving 10K worth it? Especially if they have some odd ball part that needs to get flown in! Or worse, having to fly in a tech! That 50K machine can cost you 5K for a service call.

Looking at a BT spindle and wanting a box way machine and your user name being Valve i would have to assume your repairing vales in wich case most of the valves I have repaired over the years have all been repaired by welding them up with Stellite 6 or 21. If this is the case you may want to go ahaead and op for a 50 taper BT. That is brutal on cnc machines. Even the big 50 horse 50 taper mazaks we ran sounded like they where coming apart like a dime store watch unless we roughed them on our hydrotells first. But, Thats just me guessing what you would be doing with it.

All machines being the same...I'd make this a very important concern.

When the machine goes down (they all do one time or another) what company will have parts, service and tech service available for you.
-Will it be available for a year, two, three, five years out?

-When you put a call into tech support, will you get an immediate answer or will you be asked to leave a message and next available person will return your call. Will that be within the hour, day...week?

-Service Visit...will it be someone local who comes out?? or are "you" flying someone in with food and lodging expenses. Will they have parts to repair...or will he be waiting around on your dime?

Having been in this position before, it makes a big difference. Have a Big Job for your "one" machine on a time constraint...a job you busted your butt to get and now you cannot produce without machine up and running. Customers only wait patiently for so long. Waiting days for a tech to respond or weeks for a new part/board/motor to be made and shipped is an eternity.

rkucbel1 said:

I hope by 'Asian' you mean 'Mainland Chinese'. Cause we have some stuff in our shop that is made in a certain Asian country known as Japan, and it's bad ass.

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I did mean Mainland China, but I also have a Mitsubishi EDM (made in Japan) which I apparently need to fly someone from Japan to work on as my local Mits service is less than clueless working with the machine. I certainly don't believe all machines made in any country, Mainland China included, are total junk, but I agree with everything else you said about cutting costs.
To the OP, One way or another you will pay for the machine you need. If it means your time fighting with it, paying for techs or parts, or outright paying for a new guaranteed machine that you know you can get local service for. You might get lucky and squeak by, or the machine could go down at exactly the wrong moment and cost you a job that you needed to make a payment on the machine.

most of work I am going to do is lot AL & C.I mould and die work using CAD/CAM and facing, drilling and Tapping of D.I bodies

well I do have a machine in mind will be looking at it soon,it is a Taiwnese machine EXTRON with Fanuc Oi-Mate-MB CNC system (year of manufacture 2004) it has been used for drilling C.I brake drums(according to the dealer)

looked up net and EXTRON is sold by ATRUMP is US ,any info on ATRUMP in US??

Look at the cost of a high end machines made by any of the top/largest builders who have all the infrastructure, top quality design and engineers, machinists and assemblers and years of experience, quantity pricing on all the supplies they need. All things that contribute to making them more cost efficient at what they do, and even so they still put out some machines with issues.

Then based on what we all know from the machining world and what makes each of our shops efficient/cost effective at what we do, ask yourself how a company with probably none of that, can make a product cheaper that could remotely be any good at all.

Seems scary enough to me.

barbter said:

Stay well away from it.
Go for a used known ROC (made in Taiwan) machine anyday. Leadwell / Hartford / Doosan / Bridgeport / Kia / Hyundai etc. All very similar quality with things like hardened linear rails and round ball bearings in the spindle.
Honestly, please do some search on here and then search in your country for used vmc's. When you have one that fits your budget, post back here and ask away.
HTH

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I think Doosan is Korean

Have you considered shipping costs + any import duties? This can be a killer for a one off purchase.

Valveman, in all seriousness, skip the used Extron and buy a Japanese machine wich is probably 10 years older for the same price.
We have an oldie at the floor (Mori Seiki MV40) and planned to sell it years ago, but it just wont die, ok we recently changed the spindle, but it was really worth it after 13 years beating it up real hard, theres just no sense in doing away with it yet.
The only issues we had was with the toolchanger, its repaired 3 times, 2 time due to operator fault, 1 time some minor part worn. Some fans didnt work, simple electronic fix, and the spindle recently.
Mori came with a Big plus 40 spindle, the same as they use for the newer NV's and NVX's now.

The MV will leave the Extron far behind in rigidety, altough high speed milling has some limits due to the age of the control.

Also you will find a few people over here with enough experience on them to help you out with most issues.

Im sure if you make a Poll : 2004 Extron versus 1994 Jap, the Jap will win.

Heres an example of what i would be looking at in your case (asuming your budget is around 20-30k):

private selling, comes with tools machine looks crisp : Used 1992 Kitamura MYCENTER 2 Vertical Machining Centres in Padstow, NSW Price: $25,000 <61418>

or less crispy but Okuma Used Okuma Okuma CNC Machining Centre Vertical Machining Centres in MELBOURNE, VIC Price: $24,200 <60898>

or (no asking price but will go around 15-20k ) Used MV Junior Vertical Machining Centres in DANDENONG, VIC <26257>

another MV but too high asking price Used MV JUNIOR ATC20 good condition Vertical Machining Centres in Dandenong, VIC Price: $27,000 <15359>