New CNC purchase decision M560V vs Brother S650X1
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    Default New CNC purchase decision M560V vs Brother S650X1

    I just left IMTS and was considering taking advantage of some of the IMTS sales...

    There were 2 machines that caught my attention.

    The brother S650 X1 w/ the 16k spindle and BT30 Plus equiped w/ 1 brother 4th and a brake tail stock.

    The Genos M560V w/ 15k spindle CT40 Plus, 232 psi TSC pump, hinge type Chip conveyor, 4th Axis Prepped (with no 4th) , Autogaging and tool setting renishaw system. (touch prop not laser)

    Both are the same price.

    they are such different machines but I think they can both work for what I need to do. Bulk of my work is machining 6061 aluminum, mostly machining parts that have an envelope of ~6x6x2 Sometimes longer but never higher then 4". Occasionally do 4140 PH.

    I am really intrigured by the brother. Its so different then the old mori MV that I currently run. I am a little scared by the bt30 aspect of it and the limited spindle power but I have heard only good things from brother owners.

    Also the fact that is small and uses low power amounts is a big plus for my smallish (2400 sqr ft) shop.


    I like that I know the okuma is a beast and can be more versatile but I currently haven't needed that much versatility and I still have my old mori mv40.


    Thoughts?

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    Typical parts that I currently make...






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    Quote Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
    I just left IMTS and was considering taking advantage of some of the IMTS sales...

    There were 2 machines that caught my attention.

    The brother S650 X1 w/ the 16k spindle and BT30 Plus equiped w/ 1 brother 4th and a brake tail stock.

    The Genos M560V w/ 15k spindle CT40 Plus, 232 psi TSC pump, hinge type Chip conveyor, 4th Axis Prepped (with no 4th) , Autogaging and tool setting renishaw system. (touch prop not laser)

    Both are the same price.

    they are such different machines but I think they can both work for what I need to do. Bulk of my work is machining 6061 aluminum, mostly machining parts that have an envelope of ~6x6x2 Sometimes longer but never higher then 4". Occasionally do 4140 PH.

    I am really intrigured by the brother. Its so different then the old mori MV that I currently run. I am a little scared by the bt30 aspect of it and the limited spindle power but I have heard only good things from brother owners.

    Also the fact that is small and uses low power amounts is a big plus for my smallish (2400 sqr ft) shop.


    I like that I know the okuma is a beast and can be more versatile but I currently haven't needed that much versatility and I still have my old mori mv40.


    Thoughts?
    If price and space are not an issue then the question of whether tolerances and surface finishes are of concern ?


    3d contouring would be one separator (super nurbs). [What about an Okuma M-460V ].


    Precision boring operation might be another factor...

    What about Robodrill ? (Hisssssssss booooo I hear)…


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

    @blkaplan That's a really interesting question that you pose. I'm having similar dilemma I'm lookin at a D200Z 5 axis machine from Makino 30,000 - HSK-E50 (smaller work volume like 8 to 10 " cube) … for base price about $375K Really small foot print but really accurate hits all out tolerance and surface finish requirements and can have palate systems added to it in the future and tools etc. VERSUS a bigger 5 axis machine (from different brands) that have lower tolerance but TWICE the working envelope BBT 40/cat 40. Takes up more space, less precise and more power hungry BUT cheaper and more versatile ? … But more difficult to add extra tools and palate system in the future.

    IF one is seeking to expand and scale is it not the most efficient business wise to BUY the smallest lowest power machine that can do the job.

    In the case of the D200Z it might not be best the best machine to hog out material … LOL BUT if you are removing a maximum of 8" x 8" x 8" of a softer material and smaller tool steel type parts does it really matter (i.e. not titanium).

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    OK now I see you posted you parts !

    Sorry!

    NICE parts !

    (first thought tolerances and surface finish and boring).

    Is there anything that the BROTHER can't do that M-560V can do and vice versa for your needs ?


    Will your geometries change / become more complex or compound curves versus 2 1/2 D prismatic profiles in the future ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________


    CMX 11 V - Vertical Milling by DMG MORI

    ^^^ I'd be tempted to look at one of these as a compromise … or maybe the smaller one. The castings redesigned and machine layout are excellent IMO/ really good design solution.

    For 4th axis work the DDRT rotary tables are super accurate and not too expensive either.

    CMX 6 V - Vertical Milling by DMG MORI

    Smaller ^^^

    CMX 8 V - Vertical Milling by DMG MORI

    Goldi-locks ^^^

    FYI that machine was designed as a BETTER replacement to the DURA VERTICAL line... the fact that it's lumped in with the CMX and BAD heritage of the ecoline makes it a really 'effed up mis-nomer for branding/ nomenclature. The DURA verticals were well respected the ecoline was a total pariah. (slap head/ face palm).

    The CMX - vertical series was redesigned by the chief designer at Mori seiki that was also the chief designer on the Dura verticals so logically you would be buying the successor by a couple of generations of your mori mv40...

    ON the other hand maybe a M-560V and CMX 800 V is too SLOW and hence unproductive compared to the BROTHER ?

    So maybe the BROTHER makes you more $$$$$$$ ?

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    I do have some production parts that are 3d contoured.

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    The R (version) looks interesting

    R650X1 with twin switching 4th axis units … Don't know how much that is ?

    r650-top-03-1-.jpg

    ^^^ Cool palate switcheroo with those two 4th axis units.


    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________


    Small footprint, 3d contouring + 4th (super productive speed not an issue so much)

    Matsuura VX 660 ?



    http://www.masentia.se/Files/Filer/P...ura/VX-660.pdf

    At least Yamazen can advise on both ?

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    Only going for 1 4th on the brother if i go that route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
    Also the fact that is small and uses low power amounts is a big plus for my smallish (2400 sqr ft) shop.
    How thick is your slab? At one point I was looking at the M460, but I don't think my crappy 4" slab was enough. So, I ended with a Speedio.

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    So they are both very different, very excellent machines... but the parts make the decision here and they want to be made on a Speedio.

    The math on productivity here is just absurdly in the Speedio's favor. Ignore the in-operation acceleration advantage, just on tool changes + pallet changer + the 4th, you're probably talking 30-40% productivity advantage with the Speedio. You're also eliminating setups and enabling a whole lot more design flexibility with the 4th. Those are both huge wins.

    Where you're thinking needs to go is on those 4" reach parts. With a Big+ BT30, going to 3" of reach is within the optimal zone, but 4" is getting into "totally doable, but not optimal" territory. It'll do just fine, but you're going to need to dial down the speeds/feeds to something ~30% slower than you would be doing with the B+CAT40 in the Okuma. It becomes a question of how many 4" reach parts do you have in the production mix AND if it's an option to keep those on the Mori AND if those parts have features that the 4th axis on the Speedio would do to claw back some of the speed loss in the reach operations.

    In the end though, if you're looking at a 30% production advantage to the Speedio on 90% of your parts, it's almost irrelevant that some operations on the remaining 10% of your parts may need to run 30% slower. If you've got the parts demand for it, a Speedio with a pallet changer is the closest thing to a money printer you can buy without the Secret Service knocking on your door.

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    If you are doing big volume speedio, if youa re doing precise work or working in tough materials, M560 all the way. I have an M560, excellent machine, we work on a lot of molds, and intricate crap. I am sure the brother would have "worked" but even dual contact 30 has its limitation and will not perform the same as the insanely heavy duty ocuma.

    I am doing 1-50 parts, not thousands.

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    My current production runs are 100-400 parts.

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    I just got back as well. I'm comparing the Okuma M-560 to the DMG Mori CMX 1100. I've heard a lot of great things about Okuma. About the only negative I've heard is chip wash down isnt great and the warning of chips building up in the door rails was spot on. All in all the Okuma really impresses me. I asked DMG to give me a demo of it making chips so I'd have something to go off of. The machine was silent when cutting the 1018. Anyone have experience with the CMX 1100? We do about 70% aluminum and 30% stainless/tool steel. Getting more diverse every day

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    i kind of wish i looked more closely at hte cmx1100. I was a little wary of it based on experiences of the eco line that I have heard of and its a non japanese built mori...

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    whichever you buy get the highest pressure coolant possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
    i kind of wish i looked more closely at hte cmx1100. I was a little wary of it based on experiences of the eco line that I have heard of and its a non japanese built mori...
    Folks that have them in Colorado seem to be happy with them. But at least it's Mori design and proper western components and bearings etc. [That was not the case with the eco-catastrophe.].

    There was a thread "We" thrashed out the design of the machine and genuinely the 'Peeps" at Davis did tell me that it IS genuinely the replacement for the Dura vertical. The NVX 5100 2nd gen is going for really "cray cray HIGH" money. Seems Dr Mori has his nose out of joint about something and seems to want to stuff as much pride into that NVX as he can. (Kinda sad really... Ohh well). The other thing about the NVX is that typically is better ordered as a 50 taper... [I know kinda off topic but a MORI vertical that is not a CMX will cost you close to $250k to $300K. ].

    I'll see if I can find that thread.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______

    So we kinda went all out here lol (jasher's and I getting into it in a good way). New DMG ecoMill = Mori DuraVertical

    Then New DMG ecoMill = Mori DuraVertical



    Honestly if someone put a gun to my head and said you have to design the structure of a decent machine in under that weight "Class" that's pretty much what I's come up with. I MUCH prefer the inside look and design of the casting to the outside/ guarding of the machine. The Supports under the spindle are really beefy (I think that was a problem before and now they overcompensate, but all to the good).

    Trying to find the original article

    The 4th axis accuracy of the DDRT table if of the order of 5 arc seconds really excellent (if you need that) great for 4th axis contouring; most rotaries are +/- 15 arc seconds. Not sure on breaking torque though.


    Maybe the CMX 1100 V is limited on RPM spindle wise (still).


    You can get a DDRT based 5 axis unit too. for positional and 4+1 (not sim 5).
    Last edited by cameraman; 09-16-2018 at 10:54 AM.

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    I have two 560s and just bought a Brother S500 at IMTS. I also have a Hardinge 480APC (their 500mm pallet change machine). The Okumas give crazy good finishes (why we get most of our work), quickly remove a LOT of material, and are fast for their size. They are also very easy to setup, the Renishaw interface is very easy to use, the control is just better than anything else out there.

    As for pallet change machines - they plain suck to setup and I won't do it for less than a three day run (most of our parts will run for two weeks on our 480). But they will make a lot of parts and money. Another downside is that the pallet changers are a little fragile (parts getting tossed and landing in bad places, handles getting left in a vise) and if anything happens you are down.

    I am going to use the 560s for all of the cosmetic work and the new Brother for second op work (drilling and tapping holes around the edges of the parts with the 4th, some little parts that we do that don't need the material removal of a 560, - stuff like that). Before the Brother guys go nuts, a machine like a 560 (30hp double column cat 40 15K big plus spindle) makes getting excellent finishes very easy. Aluminum tool life in the 560s is at least double what it is in our Hardinge (also big plus 40 taper) and they still give good finishes with old and worn tools. I know you can't get production speed finishes like these out of a Haas or most other machines.

    For little parts like yours a 560 will make it easy to make them look good but throughput will be limited. A 560 with a 4th and coolant through is going to run at least 140k. If you want to go the Brother route I would buy one of their show special S700 packages and a S500 package and add the T200 rotary onto one. If you don't try to be speed racer on finishing passes and pay attention to what you are doing, it looks like the Brothers can do amazing work with a little effort. That will give you two spindles for about the same price as the pallet change machine, much easier setups, some redundancy, and I guarantee that two simpler machines will put out more parts at the end of the day than a pallet machine with only a small increase in price.

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    I just read your original post again and saw that some of your parts are up to 2" thick. 30 taper machines are limited by draw bar tension on how much of a single pass side cut you can do (something like 3/4" of an inch with a high helix end mill). A 560 will let you do a single pass (not having to step down) finishing cut vs. having to walk it down on the Brother. Because of this we are able to do a lot of parts that go straight from machine to anodize with no tumbling or hand finishing - something to think about.

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    These things are awesome


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle1000 View Post
    These things are awesome

    Yeah, ant they do real small intricate stuff like a boss too with the 15k spindle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey_D View Post

    For little parts like yours a 560 will make it easy to make them look good but throughput will be limited. A 560 with a 4th and coolant through is going to run at least 140k. If you want to go the Brother route I would buy one of their show special S700 packages and a S500 package and add the T200 rotary onto one. If you don't try to be speed racer on finishing passes and pay attention to what you are doing, it looks like the Brothers can do amazing work with a little effort. That will give you two spindles for about the same price as the pallet change machine, much easier setups, some redundancy, and I guarantee that two simpler machines will put out more parts at the end of the day than a pallet machine with only a small increase in price.
    The price for the S650 with the Big Plus 16k Spindke, tool setter, T200 4th w/ and a side table works out to about 131k w/ IMTS discount
    The m560V is ~150k with a tsudokma brass worm drive 4th, probing, and pneumatic tail stock...


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