New Haas Bridge Mills look kind of interesting
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  1. #1
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    Default New Haas Bridge Mills look kind of interesting

    Well double column any way. Nice Z axis on those

    HDC-3-5AX | 5-Axis Double-Column Mill | HSK-Taper Mill | Large-Platform CNC Mills | Vertical Mills – Haas CNC Machines

    Travels S.A.E METRIC
    X Axis 150.0 in 3810 mm
    Y Axis 106.0 in 2692 mm
    Z Axis 43.0 in 1092 mm
    Spindle S.A.E METRIC
    Max Rating 60.0 hp 44.7 kW
    Max Speed 6000 rpm 6000 rpm
    Max Torque 110.0 ft-lbf @ 3000 rpm 149.0 Nm @ 3000 rpm
    Taper HSK-A100 HSK-A100
    B Axis - Tilt S.A.E METRIC
    Travel ±120˚ ±120˚
    Max Speed 68 °/sec 68 °/sec
    Max Torque 2100 ft-lbf 2847 Nm
    Brake Torque 1239 ft-lbf 1680 Nm
    C Axis - Rotation S.A.E METRIC
    Travel ± 245 ° to 245- ° 245 ° to 245- °
    Max Speed 170 °/sec 170 °/sec
    Max Torque 2240 ft-lbf 3037 Nm
    Brake Torque 2000 ft-lbf 2712 Nm
    Table S.A.E METRIC
    Length 153.0 in 3886 mm
    Width 49.0 in 1245 mm
    Max Weight on Table (evenly distributed) 10000 lb 4536 kg
    Between Columns 75.0 in 1905 mm
    Bridge Clearance 51 in 1,295 mm
    Tool Changer S.A.E METRIC
    Type SMTC SMTC
    Capacity 50+1 50+1
    General S.A.E METRIC
    Coolant Capacity 95 gal 360 L
    Air Requirements S.A.E METRIC
    Air Required 4 scfm @ 100 psi 113 L/min @ 6.9 bar
    Inline Air Hose 3/8 in 3/8 in
    Coupler (Air) 3/8 in 3/8 in
    Air Pressure Min 80 psi 5.5 bar

  2. #2
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    Stiffness and reliability?

    They don't make Viagra for machine tools...

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    Hi Speedie:
    Milland makes a good point.
    If you're planning to drop the best part of a million bucks on a platform this size, is Haas the GO TO reliable brand you want to invest in?

    Once you get to this sort of investment, the calculus changes compared to buying a simple VMC, you can cry about a bit if it doesn't work out and just sell on Ebay.
    A half million for a dog is no savings at all over a million for a productive machine, and even though the risk with a Haas might be only reputational, do you want to be the guy who takes responsibility and signs the purchase order?
    I'd rather recommend something I KNOW is going to have a great chance to be a trouble free investment over decades, and given all the unflattering publicity about the Haas brand for high end machining, I'm not sure Haas is the one I'd want to marry.

    I predict Haas will have a hard time making the first sales; even if the machine is a really good machine.
    Kinda sad, but it's the turf Haas has chosen for most of its history that makes it so.
    I'm still glad I have my Minimill...it's been great for me, but I'm not trying to make Boeing wing spars.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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  5. #4
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    Wow, it's great to see Haas do something different!

    Gene and the gang need to put their money where their mouths are: install a few of these in the Oxnard factory and make machine tool parts with them.

    Of note, notice the square "box" Z ram...wonder if Haas was ballsey enough to put linear rails at all four corners of the ram? (It kinda looks that way.) If that's the case, that Z-ram would be pretty darned stiff.

    It's hard to mess up X and Y on a machine like this, as long as Haas sizes the linear rails, ballscrews, servo motors and mounts correctly, it should be a good machine.

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    It's hard to mess up X and Y on a machine like this, as long as Haas sizes the linear rails, ballscrews, servo motors and mounts correctly, it should be a good machine.

    ToolCat
    I'm not optimistic, at least on their specs for linear rails and such.

    The table is 153" x 49". For argument's sake, let's call it 150" x 48", or 7,200 square inches. The table is rated for a max load (evenly distributed) of 10,000 lbs, or about 1.4 lbs per a square inch. That's a plate of steel about 5" thick that covers the table, or a bit less than 15" of Al.

    For Al work it's likely fine, but for steel work you'd have to worry about load concentration if you were doing (say) automotive stamping dies or the like.

    And then there's my pet peeve, stiffness. I don't care what Haas lists for spindle power and the capacity of the B and C axis, I want to know the deflection force per .001" at the spindle nose. Can I reliably take heavy cuts, or is the tool shaking and breaking when I try?

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    Seriously, that looks like a really weak offering.

    The configuration is all conflicting. They've opted for a slow HSK100 spindle, and mounted it on a lightweight frame. If they'd put a ~20k HSK63 spindle on there you could make the argument that it was intended as a fast lightweight machine. As it is, it's neither fast nor heavy.

    The spindle on their 3ax model of the same machine is completely pathetic also, using a 2 speed gearbox to develop a peak of 460nm of torque... You'll get 3 times that and more on any geared spindle taiwanese bridge mill. Our Hurco has an integrated motor spindle and develops about the same amount of torque as the Haas with no gearbox at all. Also, being a generic taiwanese frame 3m x 2m machine it can take almost 3x more weight on the table (11 metric tonnes evenly distributed).

    Hurco offer the same machine with a double rotary head, but they put a 18k HSK63 spindle on there, which is kind of the opposite extreme IMO, but still makes more sense than the Haas.

    Haas are also overstating the capacity of that machine, 2.6m Y travel, but only 1.9m between the columns, so they are clearly including the toolchanger position in the Y travel to make the numbers look more impressive.

    And most telling of all, they omit any hint whatsover about how heavy it is.

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    Haas can't even figure out a table-table 5AX machine...

    I have to chuckle; because while cheap (good) CAM is helping the small and cash-limited shops catch up in the five axis world, a lot of them keep buying these junk machines. It's honestly a bit of a relief for those of us who already have a working formula for complex parts.

    Looks like the type of machine where one foolish customer agreed to buy a dozen and participate in the development. Anyone else crazy enough to buy in can also get a piece of the action. How hard can it be to stick a five axis head on a bridge mill? I've seen enough broken SNK bridge mills to know the answer to that one...

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    Maybe they haven't built a full model yet...it says 3q 2022, so maybe weight hasn't been fully figured out yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    maybe weight hasn't been fully figured out yet?
    LOL. Can't see why that little detail would be important to know in the engineering stage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    LOL. Can't see why that little detail would be important to know in the engineering stage.
    Bro it's California lol

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    What do you all think of this bad boy? I had been saving up for an Integrex, but now...

    https://youtu.be/CSLu9SLwH6g

    By the way, how do you get videos to show up in the chat window?

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    The HDC-3-5AX is a 5-axis double-column mill designed for complex, large-part machining, such as airframe components, layup molds, and composite structures.
    Aluminum machining from the sounds of it, and carbon fiber trimming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Vise View Post
    Aluminum machining from the sounds of it, and carbon fiber trimming.
    Not with a 6k RPM spindle it won’t. Well ok it could, just not quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Not with a 6k RPM spindle it won’t. Well ok it could, just not quickly.
    Yup, I missed that part.

    A bit of an enigma, this machine...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    What do you all think of this bad boy? I had been saving up for an Integrex, but now...

    https://youtu.be/CSLu9SLwH6g

    By the way, how do you get videos to show up in the chat window?
    Uh I don’t think that’s the same class of machine. Just get the real deal if you need a mill turn.

    In my opinion it is an excellent prototyping machine and. Small part run. Really just having a big tool changer on a lathe makes things so much easier.

    My baby Integrex is not rated for the stuff they say that is and it is atleast 4x more rigid.
    My Integrex is a 10hp 6” Chuck machine and has 3 linear rails in z axis to help be a little more rigid.

    Haas (according to users on this forum I don’t have personal experience) can’t even build a normal 5 axis mill properly do you really expect a multi axis mill turn to be any good?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Uh I don’t think that’s the same class of machine. Just get the real deal if you need a mill turn.
    Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, at least I hope he was...

    I remember when they showed that machine at concept stage last year or earlier this year whenever it was.

    I honestly thought there was no way that contraption would ever make it out of concept prototype. They're seriously going to try and sell that as a product??

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, at least I hope he was...

    I remember when they showed that machine at concept stage last year or earlier this year whenever it was.

    I honestly thought there was no way that contraption would ever make it out of concept prototype. They're seriously going to try and sell that as a product??
    Playing the video....the noises it made hurts my ears LoL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Vise View Post
    Aluminum machining from the sounds of it, and carbon fiber trimming.
    Aluminum takes massive horsepower. The old Cincinnati and Ingersoll spar mills were running 125 hp heads, three of them, and that was in the eighties. Guys with snow shovels couldn't keep up with the chips.

    Fives still sells the Forest-Line stuff, which would kick this thing all over the football field for fun, I wonder what Haas is thinking ? Write off all his F1 costs into this thing as a prototype for milling one-piece F1 chassis ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Aluminum takes massive horsepower. The old Cincinnati and Ingersoll spar mills were running 125 hp heads, three of them, and that was in the eighties. Guys with snow shovels couldn't keep up with the chips.
    Yeah, but they were also running 2"+ x 10" cutters or bigger at high speeds. Even in Al that takes some power.

    Fives still sells the Forest-Line stuff, which would kick this thing all over the football field for fun, I wonder what Haas is thinking ? Write off all his F1 costs into this thing as a prototype for milling one-piece F1 chassis ?
    Haas F1 chassis are made from billet carbon fiber?? Where do they mine the ore for that, in Graphitelandia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Yeah, but they were also running 2"+ x 10" cutters or bigger at high speeds. Even in Al that takes some power.
    He's talking extremes, but he's right.

    It doesn't matter if you're doing 90% material removal on a 10 tonne forging, or pocketing a small part in a vice with a 3mm endmill.

    As long as you are not constrained by rpms and axis feedrates, and are anywhere close to optimal cutting data, you WILL be pulling a lot more power cutting aluminium than (for example) steel.

    Our Hurco that I mentioned earlier ITT has a 55KW (continuous, 60KW peak) spindle, and even though that machine cuts very little aluminium, I can state with confidence that 90%+ of it's "in the red" spindle time has been in aluminium.


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