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  1. #21
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    Haas already built a few bridge machines in the past. Mostly for themselves. But in the factory where bigger bridge machines need to cut, Japanese machines are their answer. As an example, The Okuma and Mitsubishi (NIDEC) offerings, have table weight capacities 3 to 4 times more than that for the small machines. Some have 1000 ipm rapids. All have scales and right angle heads as standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, at least I hope he was...

    I remember when they showed that machine at concept stage last year or earlier this year whenever it was.

    I honestly thought there was no way that contraption would ever make it out of concept prototype. They're seriously going to try and sell that as a product??
    Very much sarcasm, and we don't do that type of work anyway. It just amazed me that Haas literally took a lathe headstock and slapped it on a mill table. It's almost like the Spectre AC-130, where they mounted a 105mm artillery piece sticking out the side of a cargo plane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    What do you all think of this bad boy? I had been saving up for an Integrex, but now...

    https://youtu.be/CSLu9SLwH6g

    By the way, how do you get videos to show up in the chat window?
    haas = always coming up with new ways to give you a fucking headache...

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    These machines could be a play to go after the ever growing composite market. Tooling, trimming etc of carbon fiber molds and parts. Most of that market is light 5 axis routers, with some machine builders upping the game and making heavier routers. These heavy routers still aren't nearly as rigid as a true bridge mill.

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    Composite trimming machine makes a ton of sense, but as others have pointed out, such a machine would likely have an HSK63 spindle and ~20,000 RPM.

    I'm tellin ya, the goofy configuration of this thing smacks of a custom order by some large buyer that doesn't know any better. They probably put out a detailed requisition for a new machine cell, and HAAS won all of the spreadsheet metrics. We'll see a dozen of these on auction at a Honeywell factory in 3 years; after they decide to outsource the part and cut their losses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Composite trimming machine makes a ton of sense, but as others have pointed out, such a machine would likely have an HSK63 spindle and ~20,000 RPM.

    I'm tellin ya, the goofy configuration of this thing smacks of a custom order by some large buyer that doesn't know any better. They probably put out a detailed requisition for a new machine cell, and HAAS won all of the spreadsheet metrics. We'll see a dozen of these on auction at a Honeywell factory in 3 years; after they decide to outsource the part and cut their losses.
    On the 3axis config, they look like about 1/2 the machine a Doosan BM would be...and the doosan BM is about 1/2 of a SNK, MHI, Okuma, or even the box way Doosan offering. I was wondering about a Dooan BM next for steel, but the spindle torque is kind of lame and still 50% more than Haas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOTT View Post
    What do you all think of this bad boy? I had been saving up for an Integrex, but now...

    https://youtu.be/CSLu9SLwH6g

    By the way, how do you get videos to show up in the chat window?

    That part looked like hammered dog... poo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Seriously, that looks like a really weak offering.

    The configuration is all conflicting. They've opted for a slow HSK100 spindle, and mounted it on a lightweight frame. If they'd put a ~20k HSK63 spindle on there you could make the argument that it was intended as a fast lightweight machine. As it is, it's neither fast nor heavy.

    The spindle on their 3ax model of the same machine is completely pathetic also, using a 2 speed gearbox to develop a peak of 460nm of torque... You'll get 3 times that and more on any geared spindle taiwanese bridge mill. Our Hurco has an integrated motor spindle and develops about the same amount of torque as the Haas with no gearbox at all. Also, being a generic taiwanese frame 3m x 2m machine it can take almost 3x more weight on the table (11 metric tonnes evenly distributed).

    Hurco offer the same machine with a double rotary head, but they put a 18k HSK63 spindle on there, which is kind of the opposite extreme IMO, but still makes more sense than the Haas.

    Haas are also overstating the capacity of that machine, 2.6m Y travel, but only 1.9m between the columns, so they are clearly including the toolchanger position in the Y travel to make the numbers look more impressive.

    And most telling of all, they omit any hint whatsover about how heavy it is.
    I agree...WHY would someone settle on this 5 axis offering when you have a bunch of other better tested options?

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    haas = always coming up with new ways to give you a fucking headache...
    Not gonna lie, this machine reminds me A LOT of the SwissMak lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    That part looked like hammered dog... poo...
    And I wonder what accuracy for OD/ID they can achieve?
    Boring bar in ER standard holder (?) so radial orientation/locking via M19?
    Or would it have a spindle brake I wonder?

    I sort of like the concept of it, but.....

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    Haas is, like any real business, engaged in a kind of search process. They made a set of "profilers" in the VR range of 10+ years ago. Sold a few but ran into limits. They come back around with the second round of VR machines, intended for aerospace (HFO said so as I was looking at one they had for sale) - but those arrived just as Boeing took the 737 max hit and then covid hit.

    The 5-axis gantry *router* has apparently "stuck to the wall". Will the current VRs or the VMT "stick"? Don't know. If they do, expect ongoing refinement. If they don't, expect them to disappear from the catalog and be replaced with some other entry.

    You can expect that people have had enough success with some machines to make a market in them, because they are always in the catalog - the VF2 to VF7 or so. The TL and TM machines.

    (Likewise, in the 15 years I've been paying attention, the DMG line has contained a lot of weird beasts, but the DMU Monoblocks over a range of sizes have ALWAYS been in the catalog....)

    This is like saying a lot of people have done a lot of work, and made a lot of money, with pickup trucks. That doesn't mean you should buy a pickup when what you need is a class 8 semi, or sprinter or ford transit, or if what you really need is a prius.

    As well noted above, there's a class of machine where the building/foundation/truck access/power automatically step you up to a big installation, and while machine price counts, you are going to live with it for a **long time** so choose wisely. Also, for the very large machines, it appears resale value is often zero, and you have to pay somebody to scrap it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Haas is, like any real business, engaged in a kind of search process. They made a set of "profilers" in the VR range of 10+ years ago. Sold a few but ran into limits. They come back around with the second round of VR machines, intended for aerospace (HFO said so as I was looking at one they had for sale) - but those arrived just as Boeing took the 737 max hit and then covid hit.

    The 5-axis gantry *router* has apparently "stuck to the wall". Will the current VRs or the VMT "stick"? Don't know. If they do, expect ongoing refinement. If they don't, expect them to disappear from the catalog and be replaced with some other entry.

    You can expect that people have had enough success with some machines to make a market in them, because they are always in the catalog - the VF2 to VF7 or so. The TL and TM machines.

    (Likewise, in the 15 years I've been paying attention, the DMG line has contained a lot of weird beasts, but the DMU Monoblocks over a range of sizes have ALWAYS been in the catalog....)

    This is like saying a lot of people have done a lot of work, and made a lot of money, with pickup trucks. That doesn't mean you should buy a pickup when what you need is a class 8 semi, or sprinter or ford transit, or if what you really need is a prius.

    As well noted above, there's a class of machine where the building/foundation/truck access/power automatically step you up to a big installation, and while machine price counts, you are going to live with it for a **long time** so choose wisely. Also, for the very large machines, it appears resale value is often zero, and you have to pay somebody to scrap it.
    That's a very generous assessment.

    Of course every other MTB has successes and failures, but their failures are generally at least built on some kind of reasonable premise, implemented with some decent engineering, and have a potential purpose.

    Haas' recent experiments just seem clueless. Like the people coming up with ideas at haas have never worked with machines before.

    Like that "millturn". It's just embarrassing. Who greenlit that? Who decided the idea was worth running with post-prototype?

    It really makes you wonder if there is some management crisis at Haas that we don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    This is like saying a lot of people have done a lot of work, and made a lot of money, with pickup trucks. That doesn't mean you should buy a pickup when what you need is a class 8 semi, or sprinter or ford transit, or if what you really need is a prius.
    Having fun with my KTM RC390 (CM-1) so far! Right tool for the job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post

    Like that "millturn". It's just embarrassing. Who greenlit that? Who decided the idea was worth running with post-prototype?
    IF they get the structure stiff enough (including lathe spindle torque stability), AND the programming execution is good enough, AND it doesn't shit the bed after installation AND the price is acceptable...

    I can see some uses for that thing. Really.

    But there's a lot of bolded weasel writing up there, so you can bet I'm not counting on it.

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    @gregormarwick - there are businesses where " do random things and see what sticks" seem to be the core of success. Google's ancillary services (3 or 4 different messagers, various different things meant to compete with facebook, or slack, or both. all manner of services bought at high prices and then killed.) One often wonders "what are they thinking? are they thinking at all" - then look at the revenue numbers for google search, and for youtube, and I imagine google office. Oh.

    HAAS clearly plays to the "value" market - their machines are rarely ever the best at anything except function for dollar, and sometimes function for space, and pretty often supportability. (One reason I have a VF5 rather than a mazak, okuma, doosan, etc. is that machines with comparable work envelopes don't fit in the same floor space, often for silly reasons like maximally floor space inefficient coolant tanks... This was VERY annoying to me and I think brought one salesman almost to dispair.)

    Now, is the VMT kind of, well, silly? At least Ill Advised? Yes. But I assure you just as no policy maker pays any attention to my wise observations, neither do HAAS, DMG, or the like. They pay attention to what sells, and what none of us know right now is "who will buy that?" I suspect HAAS doesn't know either. (Which means that lashing up experiments out of more or less parts you already know how to make makes more sense than might be thought - if it fails, they don't have nearly the NRE in it compared to knocking off an integrex. If it succeeds woohoo!)

    So, you want a 5-axis bridge mill? Look closely at the floor space, the crane, the truck access, and then realize there are a number of vendors in this space and a wide variety of choices... But I'm not writing the checks, buy whatever you want.... (Also, I'm not trying to win a bid to cut carbon matrix for some large marine or aerospace contract that is waaay more cost sensitive than one would imagine, and gets brownie points for US sourced machine... Maybe HAAS found those folks...)

    (Most wood routers, to my eyes, look like stacks of cards about the fall over - yet there are clearly lots of folks making real money, real product, with them. And some even do some aluminum work with them.)

    All that said, the VMT is bizarre, and the gantry mills are a very weird configuration - I will not be trying to get on the early deposit list for either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    IF they get the structure stiff enough (including lathe spindle torque stability), AND the programming execution is good enough, AND it doesn't shit the bed after installation AND the price is acceptable...

    I can see some uses for that thing. Really.

    But there's a lot of bolded weasel writing up there, so you can bet I'm not counting on it.
    Even if they get all that right, there is still nowhere for the chips to fall except on top of the table, and no way to run a bar feeder. I just don't understand why they didn't bolt that same B axis head (which they presumably bought from someone, as I don't think they have any other B head machines? or any other integrated motor HSK spindles? (I don't know the haas lineup at all)) onto one of their Y axis lathe frames instead.

    I can't see ANY uses for it that wouldn't work 100% better on a more "conventional" machine, but even small millturns are expensive, so I can only assume that they're planning to sell this thing on price alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    @gregormarwick - there are businesses where " do random things and see what sticks" seem to be the core of success. Google's ancillary services (3 or 4 different messagers, various different things meant to compete with facebook, or slack, or both. all manner of services bought at high prices and then killed.) One often wonders "what are they thinking? are they thinking at all" - then look at the revenue numbers for google search, and for youtube, and I imagine google office. Oh.

    HAAS clearly plays to the "value" market - their machines are rarely ever the best at anything except function for dollar, and sometimes function for space, and pretty often supportability. (One reason I have a VF5 rather than a mazak, okuma, doosan, etc. is that machines with comparable work envelopes don't fit in the same floor space, often for silly reasons like maximally floor space inefficient coolant tanks... This was VERY annoying to me and I think brought one salesman almost to dispair.)

    Now, is the VMT kind of, well, silly? At least Ill Advised? Yes. But I assure you just as no policy maker pays any attention to my wise observations, neither do HAAS, DMG, or the like. They pay attention to what sells, and what none of us know right now is "who will buy that?" I suspect HAAS doesn't know either. (Which means that lashing up experiments out of more or less parts you already know how to make makes more sense than might be thought - if it fails, they don't have nearly the NRE in it compared to knocking off an integrex. If it succeeds woohoo!)

    So, you want a 5-axis bridge mill? Look closely at the floor space, the crane, the truck access, and then realize there are a number of vendors in this space and a wide variety of choices... But I'm not writing the checks, buy whatever you want.... (Also, I'm not trying to win a bid to cut carbon matrix for some large marine or aerospace contract that is waaay more cost sensitive than one would imagine, and gets brownie points for US sourced machine... Maybe HAAS found those folks...)

    (Most wood routers, to my eyes, look like stacks of cards about the fall over - yet there are clearly lots of folks making real money, real product, with them. And some even do some aluminum work with them.)

    All that said, the VMT is bizarre, and the gantry mills are a very weird configuration - I will not be trying to get on the early deposit list for either.
    Haas (or any other company building physical equipment) is not comparable to google. Google didn't buy all those other properties you mentioned because they thought there was a possibility of success, they bought them because they were unwelcome competition.

    Genuine question as I have not paid any attention to Haas over the years, do you think they have always developed new machines with so little apparent direction, or is this a recent thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    IF they get the structure stiff enough (including lathe spindle torque stability), AND the programming execution is good enough, AND it doesn't shit the bed after installation AND the price is acceptable...

    I can see some uses for that thing. Really.

    But there's a lot of bolded weasel writing up there, so you can bet I'm not counting on it.
    i'm not a fan of agreeing with you, but...

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i'm not a fan of agreeing with you, but...
    Heh. It happens every decade or so. I promise not to tell your buddies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Even if they get all that right, there is still nowhere for the chips to fall except on top of the table, and no way to run a bar feeder. I just don't understand why they didn't bolt that same B axis head (which they presumably bought from someone, as I don't think they have any other B head machines? or any other integrated motor HSK spindles? (I don't know the haas lineup at all)) onto one of their Y axis lathe frames instead.
    Where I can see this succeeding is with very low production prototyping, where the low cost (relatively) allows it into shops or companies where they want fast setup and don't need ultimate accuracy. I bet a number of race shops could use it, as it could be adapted to head porting with a tailstock, or milling Al uprights, or molds, or other stuff within a decent size range.

    Sure, as a production machine it would suck, but for 1-10pcs? If it really does hold up and doesn't make you want to shoot the salesman I can see it being a fun toy.

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    Obviously part dependant....because the head is so tall, to rotate to horizontal means the table is pretty big....
    Which then allows for a Chuck or Chick etc to be mounted on the table for either 1st or 2nd opping.
    It's obviously a billet machine, or castings or "soft" forgings....wouldn't want to cut anything too hard....


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