New----HAAS tooling??
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  1. #1
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    Default New----HAAS tooling??

    Just saw that Haas is selling endmills, retention knobs, toolholders, insert drills, etc. on their website.
    Pricing seems to be decent- ER32 CAT40 collet chuck for $80 list, 1/2 x 1.25 4 flute TiAlN endmills for $40.
    1.25" drill body 3xD for $250ish.

    Has anyone tried these? Are they made by Haas or just rebranded Chinese stuff?

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    My worst nightmare as a distributor .... just checked it out. Right in the picture of the first indexable drill it says made in Bulgaria on it. Which is surprising they wouldn’t make the stuff themselves with the resources they have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shop Supply Guru View Post
    My worst nightmare as a distributor .... just checked it out. Right in the picture of the first indexable drill it says made in Bulgaria on it. Which is surprising they wouldn’t make the stuff themselves with the resources they have.


    I'll just go with the Jing Dong Fu drills....

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    Took a look at the offering not worried yet. It’s like they had a lower level guy slap this program together and threw a small budget at it maybe to appease the initial tooling package needs. The carbide end mills aren’t even variable.

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    IMHO the best thing to do is have the dealer do tooling packages.
    If they have someone inhouse that knows his stuff put a package
    together it can be very helpful to a customer.The MI dealer Gerotech
    used to do packages but some bean counters axed it last year.

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    It can be. The best part being you can roll the whole thing into a capital expense and loan. The discounts are usually good as well. The Drawback I see is a lot of people getting sold on a “package” from one brand only like Sandvik and Iscar or another big player who happens to partner with the particular machine builder. As a tooling guy I almost always end up getting called in because every brand doesn’t excel in every application. Or the deal is very difficult to get tools ordered after the initial tool up if someone has money left on a certificate. A lot time reps of the brand could care less to help the new machine customer because they don’t get a cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shop Supply Guru View Post
    It can be best part being you can roll the whole thing into a capital expense and loan. The discounts are usually good as well. The Drawback I see is a lot of people getting sold on a “package” from one brand only like Sandvik and Iscar or another big player who happens to partner with the particular machine builder. As a tooling guy I almost always end up getting called in because every brand doesn’t excel in every application. Or the deal is very difficulty to get tools ordered after the initial tool up if someone has money left on a certificate. A lot time reps of the brand could care less to help the new machine customer because they don’t get a cut.
    I know what you mean there....
    However, I was fortunate to work with a guy
    that not only knew his stuff but had worked
    for Iscar in the past. He wasn't afraid to tell
    me what Iscar did well and what they didn't.
    I could get Iscar, Ingersoll, Techniks, Parlec,
    Mitee-Bite, Kurt, Fullerton and several other
    brands from him. For example, he told me not
    to bother using Iscar for finishing in the lathe.
    He said he always got beaten by someone else.

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    Kennametal does have factory in Bulgaria, so maybe it's rebranded from them.

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    If they were smart (which I am assuming they are), I would roll in generous entry level packages for everyone buying a machine... funny how small $10k sounds when you are financing $250k; additionally, it gives the consumer a taste for the brands that you carry. Get them introduced to products like Orange Vise and Blaser Coolant, and they'll keep coming back. I would offer middle to upper tier consumables at a middle of the road mark-up. For instance, something like YG endmills at 10% more than the Amazon scalpers, but still less than MSRP. Pretty easy to offer cutting advise when you know the machines capabilities.

    Once I had the consumers used to buying product from me, I would start an aggressive internal program of copying the shit out of the popular products we offered. Start doing in-line substitution of "Private Label" equivalents that are equal to or exceed the original. They have the manufacturing might and volume to directly copy or improve upon any product that any other manufacturer can produce. They have the spending power to crush any patent lawsuit. Now that those products are coming in from their own vendors, there is no mark-up to split. An endmill that used to come to them for $40 and sell to the consumer for $60, now comes in the door at $15 and still sells for $60... plus all of the customers programs are tailored to that endmill they have been buying since they bought the machine. Now they have a virtually captive market and a solid direct to the consumer supply chain with very good margins.

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    I was working at a machine shop programming for a Fadal and heard we were getting a 6030 too. The salesman was in one day and I asked him what tooling was coming with it. He said "None" and I gave him shit for not doing a good job. The biggest problem with the first machine was I spent more time trying to find cutters that fit the few toolholders we had than I did programming, and often they had to swap tools in holders in the middle of a job.

    So I wrote up a tooling list that came to about $7K and presented it to the boss this way. "You can spend $150 an month buying the tooling we need and in 5 years we'll have everything. Or you can finance the tooling for $150 a month more with the machine and we'll have everything we need right now." He only let me have $5K, which was okay because you never ask for only what you need!

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    When I bought a TM1 about 6-7 years ago I got a Cat 40 tooling package w/ 4 ER32 holders, 2 ER16 holders, two drill chucks, ER32 and ER16 collets, and a dozen(?) retention knobs. It was all Parlec. I think it was at a really reduced price (a "credit") when you bought it with the machine. Still using almost all of it (one drill chuck was defective from the get-go and was replaced with no bullpoop from the vendor). It was really helpful to get started right away cutting metal while learning about the machine and making parts on it.

    A tooling kit at a reasonable cost for first time machine buyers could be a good marketing idea if done properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyhlucas View Post
    I was working at a machine shop programming for a Fadal and heard we were getting a 6030 too. The salesman was in one day and I asked him what tooling was coming with it. He said "None" and I gave him shit for not doing a good job. The biggest problem with the first machine was I spent more time trying to find cutters that fit the few toolholders we had than I did programming, and often they had to swap tools in holders in the middle of a job.

    So I wrote up a tooling list that came to about $7K and presented it to the boss this way. "You can spend $150 an month buying the tooling we need and in 5 years we'll have everything. Or you can finance the tooling for $150 a month more with the machine and we'll have everything we need right now." He only let me have $5K, which was okay because you never ask for only what you need!
    I totally agree.
    There are way too many shops that buy machines for $200K apiece and never bat an eye.

    But boy, when the crib needs to buy $20K worth of tools.............

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    I see it a lot. Customer pays more for a premium machine then wants to buy questionable tool holders off of eBay or Amazon. Or tell me my 1/2" vari-whatever end mills are $3 too much.

    There are way too many other places to save money fixing inefficiencies in a machining business besides tool costs.

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    It's definitely a great idea for them to sell tooling in particular the holders and retention knobs. The prices are good too. They probably are tired of people buying cheap ebay holders and causing issues with the spindle taper, broken retention knobs, etc. By being able to include tooling in the financing it's a big win. They also sell so many machines and have been missing out on a lot of potential money from selling tooling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exkenna View Post

    There are way too many other places to save money fixing inefficiencies in a machining business besides tool costs.
    Indeed but its a bottom line item that shows up on every monthly budget / finance review so its always in (mis)mangements face. Getting the bean counters to understand that cost accounting at that level is the purview of engineers, not accountants whose sole useful function in this context is to flick the balls on the abacus. Real management gets this. Chair warmers and meeting hoppers don't.

    Objectively HASS sets its stall out as selling commodity machines for the "average range" of work. So selling a tooling package as part of the one stop shop approach makes a lot of sense.

    In many ways its good from the tooling vendors point of view too. Although average generally may, at best, "do" for the job specialist tooling can always be found that will be better for a shops specific range of jobs. Knowing the performance of the package sold with the machine makes it much easier to upsell usefully better equipment. When competing with a vendor supplied package which will invariably be, like the curates egg, good in parts depending on the experience of the folk buying the machine, experience of the supplier and how good the horizontal holds on their crystal balls are its a lot harder. Most especially so when you have tooling capability overlaps.

    For a lot of folk machine purchase is still far too close to the early days of car buying when you ordered a chassis, had it sent to the body builders and trotted along later to spend hours discussing colours, upholstery lights et al. Mighty Big Industrial Corp ltd. et al have departments for this. Normal shop owners just want the beast on the floor making parts.

    Just so long as no one picks up the Harley Davidson business model. Buy a bike, throw half of it away and replace with Screaming Eagle "performance" bits (with no refund on the new stuff removed) then take a swift detour through the clothing department to get colour matched everything. So the factory and dealer double their profit but the business ethics seem .... um ... .

    Er. What colour did you say HASS are using for the colour matched shop coat set?

    Clive

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    Back when we bought our 1st Haas mill we were on the edge of being able to pay the monthly payment. Buying the machine that had a basic tool holder kit was a pretty big selling point.

    If I had the option to add a few carbide endmills and other tooling into the mix...it would have been nice too. Through our dealer we were offered 25% off tooling...but a call to MSC and Travers had those prices beat quick AND they had several brands to be more competitive.

    Still...it would have been nice if we could have bought some mediocre tooling to get going. Before the CNC we used HSS tooling, cermented carbide and those Cheap TPG insert cutters. They all worked in the CNC, but we soon learned tooling didn;t break because it got chipped by manual moves..but actually wore out making
    the case for better tooling, carbide and in some cases premium grades.

    Then come the people who have no idea and just buy to fill the alloted money. Friend of mine that started out as a customer...drooled over my Haas CNC machines as he only had a bridgeport wanna be in his garage. Time went on he learned the trade a bit more then went after a City job...I gave him a letter of reccomendation. blah blah blah. He gets in and becomes their lead guy. He pushes for CNC, City drags its feet...but eventually they hand him a 200k budget...go buy something. So it was a loaded out machine and he had to use all the money or lose it. No body wants to leave money as next year they wil give less. So every accesory he could find was included. Vises, extra axis, rotary, probing, macros, high intensity lighting, fixturing, coolant...whatever they had. So yes tooling can be lucrative...

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    This could be a great fit for some shops but definitely not for us. We use a tooling solutions company that stocks an automated crib with all our consumable tooling and anything else, such as holders and what not, we simply order via email. They have hotlines to reps of all our preferred tooling brands, have provided us with a plethora of quick, on-demand assistance and they even stock some "commodity" cheap tooling for certain tasks. No, oem machine supplied tooling is not for us but thanks anyway.

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    Bump, bump. Any guinea pigs out there?

    Haas just did their tooling demo yesterday. Has anyone had a chance to play with their stuff?
    Now I see they have replaceable tip drills too. I'm suspicious they are rebranding someone else's drills (see link below).
    Problem is, their price is $200 for a 5xD 1/2" body. I can get an Iscar for $250. I think that's a no go for me.......
    HAAS DRILL HEAD, 33/64" DIAMETER, SEAT SIZE 20, PM25 GRADE

    Their solid carbide seems to be pretty cheap though.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    I'm suspicious they are rebranding someone else's drills
    Wouldn't that be against the law?
    Or do you mean they have a contract with the same supplier that makes (for example) the same inserts as Iscar and puts their name on them?

    I know that Sandvik makes their own carbide, and I think they sell blanks to a lot of companies too.

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    Not to derail the topic, but looking at their end mill holders on that page, does Haas not have a dual contact spindle on any of their mills?


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