New HAAS UMC 1500 "Duo" release Q3 2020
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    Default New HAAS UMC 1500 "Duo" release Q3 2020

    UMC-1500-DUO | 5-Axis Mill | 40-Taper | Vertical Mills – Haas CNC Machines

    ^^^ Like the title says.

    Big bridge / ram that's 1500 mm long with the UMC 750 table right and a flat 3 axis style table "left".

    Both tables at same height, So you can support longer work pieces on both tables (up to 60" I think ?).

    cycloidal drive and SS versions.

    Base price low 200's (k) and SS versions Mid 200's.



    In terms of layout and idea very similar to the SPINNER's that do a similar thing (different engineering).





    SPINNER video to help illustrate the HAAS UMC 1500 "concept". ^^^ (no HAAS video yet.).



    So with the HAAS UMC 1500 maybe 60" wall of or bridge of iron with a travelling RAM could be very good for certain applications.

    Haven't seen renderings of the casting yet nor do I know it's weight yet , buuuuut,

    Long work with smaller complex parts … all kinds of fixturing + a more substantial MASS of IRON ! :-)

    (could be 25 to 28,000 lbs ? pure guess ?)

    [Options for HSK 15k, and rotary scales (on knuckle-trunnion/knunion) as standard and even mist extractor thrown in as standard .]


    Thought I'd just throw that up there.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

    * No affiliation to HAAS, Spinner or youtube MTDCNC etc. etc.

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    The video doesn't show anything interesting? No machine motion or what would make it work better than dedicated 3 or 5 ax machine.

    edit: most of you know I'm a Haas fan, but that machined optioned is pushing $240k. I don't think Haas is in that market yet....

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    Looks like it could be great, if all the details are handled right. $310 for the SS with the options I'd want. Could have two well optioned VF-3SS's with removable trunnions for about the same price, or one with and one without for less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    The video doesn't show anything interesting? No machine motion or what would make it work better than dedicated 3 or 5 ax machine.

    edit: most of you know I'm a Haas fan, but that machined optioned is pushing $240k. I don't think Haas is in that market yet....
    I agree, (there are more dynamic videos out there.),

    Agree on "new " price point / area for HAAS for such a machine.

    The Spinner unit can tilt 90 degrees so you can use it as a 4th axis for longer work pieces , Spinner also have longer travel versions.

    We have some 60" between center work and 5th axis intricate stuff. "Normal" go to would be B-axis integrex / mill turn style (complications with steady rests) Or no turning B axis mills like from Hurco that start at about the same price. (can be problem having the spindle head clear far away from an embedded C axis in the table laterally left and right with the milling head tilted 90 degrees .).

    Not sure if one can take the side doors off on the UMC 1500 and if you can use a "duck board" to get in and out of the machine (also) ? [Less leaning in for time consuming set ups ?].

    the DMG / Mori seiki Dura vertical 3 axis only version that had big / long table was approx. $200 to $250K (that's regular C-frame) rather than travelling ram + bridge ?

    Hmmmm

    I can't think of any other machines that are built with that layout as the HAAS UMC 1500 and SPinners … ? (Big 5 axis knuckle (right) and static table left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Looks like it could be great, if all the details are handled right. $310 for the SS with the options I'd want. Could have two well optioned VF-3SS's with removable trunnions for about the same price, or one with and one without for less.
    I agree about "details" handled right.

    I'm wondering if it has a larger / meatier ball screw for the X axis.

    Doesn't seem to a have linear scale for the X axis (yet).

    I'm wondering also if they redesigned the ram / XYZ assembly a bit less 'Droop" when fully extended in Y and Z ?

    Theoretically the knuckle trunions on the UMC-500 should be more accurate than the table mounted trunnions and perhaps better for 4+1 / dare I say sim 5 ?

    The cyclonic drive for the new UMC's should take much more of a pounding.

    ______________________________________


    Two Vf3ss's with trunnions , one with and one without ? ---> still 40" machines, stepping up to 60" machines almost for all brands gets a lot more spendy IF you don't have or need 50 to 60" work pieces. Then I guess what you say @mhajicek makes sense.

    Also wondering if other rotaries can be driven on the UMC 1500 "Duo" ?

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    Interesting concept, but seems like a poor decision to cut dovetails or second ops on such an expensive machine. Just my opinion but I'd keep those simple ops to cheaper machines.

    I suppose there is value in having less WIP and complete parts each cycle, however.

    But if that's the idea (not saying that's the only use) it seems the design is backwards. I'd rather have the rotary closer to the toolchanger, since that would be where most of the tools are used. As it is currently you're just adding 60" of X-travel to every toolchange on your 5-axis parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Interesting concept, but seems like a poor decision to cut dovetails or second ops on such an expensive machine. Just my opinion but I'd keep those simple ops to cheaper machines.

    I suppose there is value in having less WIP and complete parts each cycle, however.

    But if that's the idea (not saying that's the only use) it seems the design is backwards. I'd rather have the rotary closer to the toolchanger, since that would be where most of the tools are used. As it is currently you're just adding 60" of X-travel to every toolchange on your 5-axis parts.
    I think it makes sense. Leave the machine running overnight, it finishes a pyramid full of parts on the 5 axis, then runs a set of B-sides and preps a set of stock on the 3 axis. come in in the morning you're ready to swap stock and hit the button again. I'm running parts right now that are 10 hours for a set of four on the trunnion, then 1/2 hour each for the B-sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    The Spinner unit can tilt 90 degrees so you can use it as a 4th axis for longer work pieces , Spinner also have longer travel versions.

    We have some 60" between center work and 5th axis intricate stuff. "Normal" go to would be B-axis integrex / mill turn style (complications with steady rests) Or no turning B axis mills like from Hurco that start at about the same price. (can be problem having the spindle head clear far away from an embedded C axis in the table laterally left and right with the milling head tilted 90 degrees .).
    left.
    What about the UMC-1600-H? UMC-1600-H | 50-Taper Mill | 5-Axis Mill | Horizontal Mills – Haas CNC Machines

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    That's a pretty insane machine (in a good way) ; I've never seen that , I've seen 4th axis + titling fixture for automotive "port machining" and similar.

    So the UMC 1600-H claims a 78" max part swing on integrated 4th axis - That's nuts / pretty amazing. Base price/ starting price $350K

    50 Taper for us is a little over kill + we need the higher rpms.

    60" longer skinnier work pieces + more intricate 5 axis parts/ assemblies.

    I like @mhajicek's point about nest/ pyramid / Christmas tree and "B-sides" over night.

    It's a different approach that HAAS has to ganging parts together on a big table means you can let it run for long time and do something else for long time too. Alternate idea to palette carousels like on Matsuuras etc. There are complications with thermal drift etc. on big tabled ganged parts but maybe getting a better handle on in process gauging and macros might close some of those gaps (in some cases, if needed ?).


    I'll have to spend more time to "grok" the UMC-1600-H we have systems that physically scale (in more challenging materials) and have wondered how we would do the big-boy versions of some of our gear that we need to chuck out the door.

    @Jmaks
    thanks for posting that link ~ VERY interesting.

    Normally for what we need regular 4th axis horizontal is a bad fit for us , and I have never really been able to figure out why ? Our parts are just not like that ? [shrugging shoulders ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ] but that huge 5 axis mount for the UMC 1600-H looks pretty amazing , I can see some really good applications in aerospace.

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    They have a lot going on, What’s New – Haas Automation – Best in CNC Machine Value
    2 Tabs, Currently available and Coming soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    They have a lot going on, What’s New – Haas Automation – Best in CNC Machine Value
    2 Tabs, Currently available and Coming soon.
    I think the 1600 ZT has just melted my brain lol

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    What I am wondering is, there are too many new concepts and too many version 1's that they will have to get feedback and redesign all in one time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    What I am wondering is, there are too many new concepts and too many version 1's that they will have to get feedback and redesign all in one time.
    Maybe they're throwing things at the wall to see what will stick.

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    I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this thing.....
    VR-8 | 5-Axis Mill | HSK-Taper | Vertical Mills – Haas CNC Machines

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    I was pretty interested when I first saw the 1500 duo in my inbox this morning. But on reflection, wouldn't it be better to have 2 machines, one 3-axis for cutting dovetails (and cutting them off later), dealing with large stuff, etc. The other with 5-axis function?

    For what it's worth, DMG DMF, and a similar layout from other vendors, could achieve a similar sort of result. These are machines with a very large table, and C-axis rotary embedded in one end, and a B-axis (or I suppose A-axis) head. The trunnion model probably has better clearence (less propensity to conflict/collision between angled over head and work on flat table) but the basic scheme is kind of the same.

    Some of the other stuff looks pretty wild - like Haas is going to throw it down on 5-axis now....

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    wow, interesting concept! i kinda dig it.

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    Default 5 axis

    Someone mentioned Haas going hard after 5 axis... maybe they are? Maybe they bring 5 axis into "everyman's" land like they did for general cnc (ie-garages, pole barn shops, etc)?? *

    *But that is still a heck of a price tag for a Haas machine (sorry )

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    The VR-8 Looks super light duty!!! They couldn't even do a spindle bolted solid right a few years ago. And doing side work in the Y axis must limit you to a short tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Someone mentioned Haas going hard after 5 axis... maybe they are? Maybe they bring 5 axis into "everyman's" land like they did for general cnc (ie-garages, pole barn shops, etc)?? *
    5 Axis is the future. If I were starting a job shop today? My first call would be to Haas for a UMC 500 SS. Why? Because it is the lowest cost machine to very efficiently handle the widest envelope of possible work that might be walking through the door. After I built up a solid customer base, my next call would be to Andy for a Speedio so that I could print money on those higher-volume jobs that filter through my initial POs that I originally snagged with the Haas.

    *But that is still a heck of a price tag for a Haas machine (sorry )
    Go call Okuma, Matsuura, Hermle, Grob, Yasda, Makino, etc and see how much money they want for a 1500mm platter 5 axis machine with a 3 axis table on the side (if they even make such a beast). Haas is coming in and slaughtering the notion that 5 axis machines need to be some exotic bullshit with a starting price of $300k before you put any workholding or a single tool in it.

    And we should all be thankful! Haas will put a small 5 axis machine, with probing, TCPC/DWO, scales on the rotaries, for a $119k.

    My last quote for a Genos M460 5ax? They brought the price down to $225k. A friend just bought a Matsuura Mx330 for $234k. The DUM 50 Gen III is moving back in the same ballpark. These guys were all thinking this next gen of lower-cost 5 axis mills were going to fetch list prices of just under $300k, with street prices of $275k. They've had to knock $50k off because of Haas, and they are now all throwing in the base level necessities (probing, tool centerpoint, calibration spheres/software) in the base price.

    Is Haas on par with Matsuura, Okuma, or DMG (when they work?) absolutely fucking not! But the flip side of the question is: are those higher-end machine tool brands delivering 2x the quality/reliability/accuracy/value at 2x the price? Probably not. Everyone knows that if you're going to be Cameraman levels of fucking nerd about this, you call Kern/Hermle/Yasda or some other eurotrash brand nobody ever heard of that makes Patek escapements on the 4 machines they build a year in a Swiss bunker. For the vast majority of job shops though? Haas is killing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    5 Axis is the future. If I were starting a job shop today? My first call would be to Haas for a UMC 500 SS. Why? Because it is the lowest cost machine to very efficiently handle the widest envelope of possible work that might be walking through the door. After I built up a solid customer base, my next call would be to Andy for a Speedio so that I could print money on those higher-volume jobs that filter through my initial POs that I originally snagged with the Haas.



    Go call Okuma, Matsuura, Hermle, Grob, Yasda, Makino, etc and see how much money they want for a 1500mm platter 5 axis machine with a 3 axis table on the side (if they even make such a beast). Haas is coming in and slaughtering the notion that 5 axis machines need to be some exotic bullshit with a starting price of $300k before you put any workholding or a single tool in it.

    And we should all be thankful! Haas will put a small 5 axis machine, with probing, TCPC/DWO, scales on the rotaries, for a $119k.

    My last quote for a Genos M460 5ax? They brought the price down to $225k. A friend just bought a Matsuura Mx330 for $234k. The DUM 50 Gen III is moving back in the same ballpark. These guys were all thinking this next gen of lower-cost 5 axis mills were going to fetch list prices of just under $300k, with street prices of $275k. They've had to knock $50k off because of Haas, and they are now all throwing in the base level necessities (probing, tool centerpoint, calibration spheres/software) in the base price.

    Is Haas on par with Matsuura, Okuma, or DMG (when they work?) absolutely fucking not! But the flip side of the question is: are those higher-end machine tool brands delivering 2x the quality/reliability/accuracy/value at 2x the price? Probably not. Everyone knows that if you're going to be Cameraman levels of fucking nerd about this, you call Kern/Hermle/Yasda or some other eurotrash brand nobody ever heard of that makes Patek escapements on the 4 machines they build a year in a Swiss bunker. For the vast majority of job shops though? Haas is killing it.
    I hope you're right ,

    To dispute the essence of what you set out would indeed be shooting myself in the foot.

    There are limits to "CNC " milling in respect of grinding, jig grinding and lapping etc. and even Wire EDM.

    If the UMC table only positions to 10 to 20 arc seconds then at least with the left hand static table one can do more precise setups for specific bores and precision reference surfaces + "tapping" into 25 to 28 K lbs of iron. So having bores that align/ line up properly can be more easily accomplished to tighter tolerances (if needed).

    Table is like the UMC 750 (newer version) … but X travel down the casting is 1500 ish mms.

    So for long 60" ish work pieces seems to be very versatile for 3 axis and maybe 4th axis work.

    The side door on the right is designed for automation aswell / large pallet systems.

    IF Makino came down on price 'cuz of HAAS I would eat my hat though... Those guys price structure is pretty immutable*.

    Great prices on Matsuura and Okuma M-460V 5ax you cite...

    Basic bridge style 3 axis machine with 60" travel is really expensive normally, or even long travelling column machine.

    Still pre-tentioned ball screws and linear scales etc. not available, but good value for money never the less.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________


    * It's kinda funny locally as it's the same outfit that sells HAAS that also sells Matsuura that also sells MAKINO... So they are not going to move on price.

    ** I would also argue Matsuura originally put the cat amongst the pigeons price wise with the MX 520 (I think) price/ performance , but a lot has changed since then.


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