New HAAS UMC 1500 "Duo" release Q3 2020 - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    If the UMC table only positions to 10 to 20 arc seconds then at least with the left hand static table one can do more precise setups for specific bores and precision reference surfaces + "tapping" into 25 to 28 K lbs of iron. So having bores that align/ line up properly can be more easily accomplished to tighter tolerances (if needed).
    Folks forget who these machines are designed for... shops currently working in a 3 axis world. Their machines hold no rotational arc seconds between indexes... To make your theoretical bores match up is, for them, a matter of building and dialing-in a fixture for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or (bejesus) 5th operation.

    So the Haas may very well not be the sort of affair you get with a Hermle where you run your code through CAMPlete and walk away, expecting everything to be within 10 microns... but you are *absolutely* going to be way ahead of the 3 axis game with a Haas 5 axis if all you need to dial in each index is a little in-process probing and/or a some indicator work. Clamping a part once and then rolling it to the next setup with the hand wheel is a hell of a lot less effort than having to cook up a fixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Folks forget who these machines are designed for... shops currently working in a 3 axis world. Their machines hold no rotational arc seconds between indexes... To make your theoretical bores match up is, for them, a matter of building and dialing-in a fixture for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or (bejesus) 5th operation.

    So the Haas may very well not be the sort of affair you get with a Hermle where you run your code through CAMPlete and walk away, expecting everything to be within 10 microns... but you are *absolutely* going to be way ahead of the 3 axis game with a Haas 5 axis if all you need to dial in each index is a little in-process probing and/or a some indicator work. Clamping a part once and then rolling it to the next setup with the hand wheel is a hell of a lot less effort than having to cook up a fixture.
    I kinda know what you mean here … but I'm not sure I get exactly what you mean.

    I do think the UMC 500 IS a brilliant move by HAAS and they will sell a crazy amount of them and indeed does steal away from some of the other 5 axis "Peeps" market share (for sure).

    The HAAS UMC 1500 Duo is very unique by comparison.

    I agree a lot of three axis (more traditional shops) will dog-pile in onto the newer HAAS 5 axis offerings.

    BUT,

    In some sense it might create a technical gulf or valley in price / performance.

    So HAAS owns the base of the market (something it's best at) and then the Dr Mori "projects" go up market (they have already done that), same with Hermle, and some of the others.

    It's kinda remarkable there is a quiet "contraction" in the machine tool industry (in terms of number of units sold / volume as compared to a couple of years ago) and how all the different players respond to that.

    So it IS quite possible that HAAS will totally own the base chunk in 5 axis - Big time.

    Buuuuuuut 5 axis wise there's the Litz, Feelers and Quaser machines (very well built ) Taiwanese machines with scales, and thermal control / management, choice of different controls including Heidenhain, (Fanuc, Siemens etc.) , hand scraped joints , 5 arc second positional repeat abilities (with rotary scales) etc. pre tensioned ball screws , spindle chillers, etc. Will be interesting to see if HAAS's new 5 axis efforts will have any impact on the Taiwanese offerings ?

    + Doosan. (will HAAS take a bite out of them ?)

    + MAZAK. (will HAAS take a bite out of them or just create a new broader HAAS "Only" 5 axis market, i.e. HAAS 5 axis or no 5 five axis ).

    Not saying Quaser machines replace the "home team friendliness" of HAAS.

    In some instances good blends and good 5 axis tolerances are required (depends which applications and industries you serve at various scales) + the darn automation thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I kinda know what you mean here … but I'm not sure I get exactly what you mean.
    I'm saying that the 5 axis side of the market is over-saturated by about 10 companies building machines that are basically somewhere between a Porsche and a Ferrari, where what the vast majority of spindles really need to be is a Camry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I'm saying that the 5 axis side of the market is over-saturated by about 10 companies building machines that are basically somewhere between a Porsche and a Ferrari, where what the vast majority of spindles really need to be is a Camry.
    I think that's an interesting analogy. The UMC 500 looks to be very good value for sure.

    Does Toyota still use Toyoda machines ?

    ~ Pulling focus on the UMC 1500 Duo , had some fun pricing up the SS version.

    So with HSK 15K rpm spindle you have to have a 50+1 tool changer, threw in most of the better coolant / tank / skimmer options.

    Cool they throw in the "Wireless Intuitive Probing" as standard (nice move).

    managed to rack it up to $301,455.00 ?

    I think the SPINNER is less, (but doesn't have the support network of HAAS ).

    Did the non-SS version of the UMC 1500 duo with 15K rpm HSK + compulsory options and managed to rack it up to $289,000.00 ?

    Like what some of the others are saying , NEW types of machines that can't really be compared to anything else and new price bracket / territory for HAAS.



    Interesting.

    Methods MB 650 U machine built by Litz but commissioned by Methods / Methods specifications, is about $260K (best price) but has scales all axes and rotary to about 5 arc seconds + everything else included.



    So not sure if this type of machine ^^^ Is DOA in respect of a HAAS UMC 500 ? But it's all scales(rotary and linear) , pre tensioned ball screws , spindle chiller + separate spindle motor cooling etc. (Fanuc control "Standard" but Heidenhain control option also.) + Laser tool setter / tool breakage detection (standard -thrown in) + 48 tools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Cool they throw in the "Wireless Intuitive Probing" as standard (nice move).
    They do that on all UMCs. Even the bottom base UMC 500 with the 8k spindle gets WIPS, rotary scales, and TCPC/DWO as standard.

    Like what some of the others are saying , NEW types of machines that can't really be compared to anything else and new price bracket / territory for HAAS.
    I sort of look at it from the other direction; why the hell are 5 axis machines so absurdly expensive?

    Look at the Okuma M460 5 Axis; they sell this machine for $225 currently, to much praise for being an affordable 5 axis... But think of this for a moment - they took the $95k Genos M460 with the same tool changer, control, sheet metal, spindle, and casting. They replace the table with a trunnion and add two controlled axes to it. Somehow those modifications more than double the price?

    They can do that because 5 axis still has an air of exotic-ness about it where as 3 axis VMCs are basically a commodity now with tremendous price pressure and not huge differentiation between brands. With the 5ax version? Okuma bolts an extra $30k of parts onto a commodity machine, but gets to charge $130k more for it.

    Haas is simply taking a bottoms-up pricing approach. Go price a VF2 roughly similar to the base UMC500... the prices are within spitting distance of one another by the time you configure that VF2 with a 5 axis bolt on, WIPS, and TCPC/DWO. There is no exotic up-charge with Haas just because it is a 5 axis machine - they took their parts bin of modular bits an charged (basically) what they would for those parts in any configuration.

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    regard the pricing on the 1500-DUO - depending on what size 3-axis table and what size 5-axis trunnion platter you need or want, it would seem that a pair of machines (say a VF4 or VF5 + UMC500) would be a similar price. Surely more floor space. Have to duplicate a lot of tools. But 2 spindles that could run in parallel (so you cut one dovertail and start the 5-axis job, cut more dovetails for following parts, then deck off the dovetails and do whatever else to the 6th side - all while the 5-axis machine is applying its special magic.)

    Just a thing to think through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    They do that on all UMCs. Even the bottom base UMC 500 with the 8k spindle gets WIPS, rotary scales, and TCPC/DWO as standard.



    I sort of look at it from the other direction; why the hell are 5 axis machines so absurdly expensive?

    Look at the Okuma M460 5 Axis; they sell this machine for $225 currently, to much praise for being an affordable 5 axis... But think of this for a moment - they took the $95k Genos M460 with the same tool changer, control, sheet metal, spindle, and casting. They replace the table with a trunnion and add two controlled axes to it. Somehow those modifications more than double the price?

    They can do that because 5 axis still has an air of exotic-ness about it where as 3 axis VMCs are basically a commodity now with tremendous price pressure and not huge differentiation between brands. With the 5ax version? Okuma bolts an extra $30k of parts onto a commodity machine, but gets to charge $130k more for it.

    Haas is simply taking a bottoms-up pricing approach. Go price a VF2 roughly similar to the base UMC500... the prices are within spitting distance of one another by the time you configure that VF2 with a 5 axis bolt on, WIPS, and TCPC/DWO. There is no exotic up-charge with Haas just because it is a 5 axis machine - they took their parts bin of modular bits an charged (basically) what they would for those parts in any configuration.


    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I sort of look at it from the other direction; why the hell are 5 axis machines so absurdly expensive?
    ^^^ I agree , I can't figure that one out either (truth be told).

    These Genos prices I may have to check in local sellers … That's a pretty major price drop.


    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Look at the Okuma M460 5 Axis; they sell this machine for $225 currently, to much praise for being an affordable 5 axis... But think of this for a moment - they took the $95k Genos M460 with the same tool changer, control, sheet metal, spindle, and casting. They replace the table with a trunnion and add two controlled axes to it. Somehow those modifications [B]more than double the price?
    ^^^ Originally it's precursor the MU 400 V was the better chunk of $600K

    A lot of us were "moaning" that switching from 3 axis Genos to 5 axis OKUMA machines was a massive cliff face price wise to scale.

    So as they claim they did "listen" as a lot of folks that got their start with the Genos were being forced to switch brands like to MAZAK or Matsuura etc. and in most cases reluctantly because they dig the control and quality of build of some of the machines.

    That Trunion on the M460V 5ax is a $100K trunnion.

    So YES $140K M460V + special trunnion etc. / + deaccession and upgraded MU-400.

    Still , no fine pitch ball screws or actual scales but hey the machine will last three shifts for 15 years.

    The UMC 500 I think with redesigned structure /castings and various shorter travels than the original UMC 750 might be a reasonably "tight" -ish machine.

    _______________________________________

    I'll come back to your other point in a mo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    regard the pricing on the 1500-DUO - depending on what size 3-axis table and what size 5-axis trunnion platter you need or want, it would seem that a pair of machines (say a VF4 or VF5 + UMC500) would be a similar price. Surely more floor space. Have to duplicate a lot of tools. But 2 spindles that could run in parallel (so you cut one dovertail and start the 5-axis job, cut more dovetails for following parts, then deck off the dovetails and do whatever else to the 6th side - all while the 5-axis machine is applying its special magic.)

    Just a thing to think through.
    I was thinking very much the same thing … Haven't priced it out exactly.

    One thing potentially that the UMC 1500 has going for it is that it's a traveling ram riding on the bridge and the table is fixed.

    Admittedly for longer parts there's a bit of jiggery pokery with the gap + fixturing.

    I haven't seen the design of the UMC 1500 Duo's castings yet and how they have extended the HAAS newer UMC-750 casting's bridge to give it an extra 750 mm ?

    https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/...500-DUO_SS.PDF

    ^^^ Draft of the layout drawing that gives a few more clues as to its castings etc.

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    Wow way to go Haas. That is a big step in the right direction. Multiprocess is the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    They do that on all UMCs. Even the bottom base UMC 500 with the 8k spindle gets WIPS, rotary scales, and TCPC/DWO as standard.



    I sort of look at it from the other direction; why the hell are 5 axis machines so absurdly expensive?

    Look at the Okuma M460 5 Axis; they sell this machine for $225 currently, to much praise for being an affordable 5 axis... But think of this for a moment - they took the $95k Genos M460 with the same tool changer, control, sheet metal, spindle, and casting. They replace the table with a trunnion and add two controlled axes to it. Somehow those modifications more than double the price?

    They can do that because 5 axis still has an air of exotic-ness about it where as 3 axis VMCs are basically a commodity now with tremendous price pressure and not huge differentiation between brands. With the 5ax version? Okuma bolts an extra $30k of parts onto a commodity machine, but gets to charge $130k more for it.

    Haas is simply taking a bottoms-up pricing approach. Go price a VF2 roughly similar to the base UMC500... the prices are within spitting distance of one another by the time you configure that VF2 with a 5 axis bolt on, WIPS, and TCPC/DWO. There is no exotic up-charge with Haas just because it is a 5 axis machine - they took their parts bin of modular bits an charged (basically) what they would for those parts in any configuration.
    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    They can do that because 5 axis still has an air of exotic-ness about it where as 3 axis VMCs are basically a commodity now with tremendous price pressure and not huge differentiation between brands.
    With mold machines the Makino F5's etc. new , are still a $200K to $250K proposition, even though they are made in Singapore but cheaper than the very top drawer old school Makinos.

    In 5 axis high positional accuracy is a "Thing" for tricky parts that have more than one reference surface particularly Defense / DOD / and very specific classes of aerospace parts.

    Then 5 axis machines got better at "Moving" so you have mold level sim 5 axis machines (that's still debatable / controversial).

    High precision and high accuracy machines are there to just compensate an error stack up of at least 23 variables that you don't get on a 3 axis machine anywhere near so much. Probing can only do so much. [but definitely helps.].


    Accurate mechanical parts are still tricky on 5 axis, if you don't need that accuracy then that's awesome. If you don't need 5 axis that's also awesome !


    So With HAAS their mold machines are mold-ish … But if it fits your applications then awesome.
    They've been doing the trunnions a long time but tricky to do complex contouring or sim 5 axis moves well.

    As I have said before I think the HAAS control may be the bottle neck for better sim 5 axis moves and use of scales on all axes.

    A set of linear scales XYZ ≈ $12,000

    Good Heidenhain A or B axis direct read encoder ≈ $6000

    Good heidenhain C axis encoder ≈ $4000

    Renishaw equivalents built more directly into the machine - less.

    Spindle chiller $4K ish ???

    And so on.

    Not sure that HAAS would go to pretensioned ball screws or core cooled ball screws any time soon ?

    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________


    I think it ultimately boils down to time vs. skills for whatever "process" you have going on. One could say 5 axis is just another level of automation of what used to be three axis parts but I find precision 5 axis offers the opportunity to reduce the complexity of parts and potentially increase field reliability of various systems by having fewer parts and adjustments and at the same time utilizing more advanced geometries that are higher strength , rigidity and lower weight.

    Similar things can be accomplished with way more process steps and more traditional workflows like jig grinding , surface grinding , specific set ups for certain referenced bores (almost like old school jig -boring) requiring skill and considerable training which is harder to scale and implement in different locations ~ That's why there's such a hard push for precision 5 axis + automation + the done in one "mentality".

    People skills are being replaced 'cuz employers can't scale old school skills so easily with in house training programs. (similar end results can be achieved "Old school" with really good people and less outlay of equipment expenditure, in some cases higher levels of quality /higher tolerance results can be achieved by hand, but still difficult to scale in a world that professes the need for rapid expansion in a quasi "Capitalist" system of your choosing.

    With High accuracy 5 axis machines I thinks it's a case of redirecting "talent and skills" potentially in a more useful and dare I say more productive way.

    I agree the level of investment for that IS hideous so at least HAAS offers the potential for a hybrid approach of quasi automation and having old school methods tacked on for high accuracy work. Still kinda slow though.

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    If,(and I mean if, because it isn't even on the radar for them), Haas brought out a high end machine(more rigid, better accuracy/repeatability, spindle HP, better thermal comp controls, competitive pricing, etc.) they would sell them like hotcakes in my limited opinion.
    The Haas control is my personal favorite to run on a daily basis and easier to find operators for around here.
    I am looking for a better option for some of the higher end work we do, and I can't consider Haas a player, unfortunately.
    I am looking at Doosan and Okuma as my only viable options at this point for an affordable 5 axis job shop option, but I would rather deal with the more familiar and proven control and support I have received from my Haas HFO than be forced to go out on a limb.
    I know what I must do to make my Haas machines hold tolerances they don't normally, but would pay up to insure that they would without having to pay extremely close attention to the thermal and positioning issues.
    I would love to own an OKK, Matsuura, Hermle, Yasda, Mitsui Seiki, etc ,but can"t justify the leap at this point. I don't know how many are in my shoes right now, but I would bet it is a LOT!
    I would rather buy a made in the USA machine, but I don"t know of any I could jump into tomorrow.
    Hurco hasn"t impressed me to this point, and aren't made in the states to the extent Haas has been historically. Are there any other viable USA made options for a small 5 axis under 300K?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmack View Post
    If,(and I mean if, because it isn't even on the radar for them), Haas brought out a high end machine(more rigid, better accuracy/repeatability, spindle HP, better thermal comp controls, competitive pricing, etc.) they would sell them like hotcakes in my limited opinion.
    The Haas control is my personal favorite to run on a daily basis and easier to find operators for around here.
    I am looking for a better option for some of the higher end work we do, and I can't consider Haas a player, unfortunately.
    I am looking at Doosan and Okuma as my only viable options at this point for an affordable 5 axis job shop option, but I would rather deal with the more familiar and proven control and support I have received from my Haas HFO than be forced to go out on a limb.
    I know what I must do to make my Haas machines hold tolerances they don't normally, but would pay up to insure that they would without having to pay extremely close attention to the thermal and positioning issues.
    I would love to own an OKK, Matsuura, Hermle, Yasda, Mitsui Seiki, etc ,but can"t justify the leap at this point. I don't know how many are in my shoes right now, but I would bet it is a LOT!
    I would rather buy a made in the USA machine, but I don"t know of any I could jump into tomorrow.
    Hurco hasn"t impressed me to this point, and aren't made in the states to the extent Haas has been historically.

    <micro snip>
    I think I pretty much agree with every line and statement you have set out there , really.


    Quote Originally Posted by pmack View Post
    Are there any other viable USA made options for a small 5 axis under 300K?
    ^^^ ????

    US commissioned, Chevalier, Methods MB 650, Various Quaser-ish machines (Taiwanese), Hardinge Quaser like machines... (Taiwanese.).

    Fryer ? Taiwanese iron but Siemens controls and tricked out in the USA.

    Nothing home grown on US soil per say ?

    Davis California DMG Mori maybe the CMX 's positional 4+1 ???

    Mazak VCU 500 c 5ax ? Some issues -Kentucky built ?

    That's a tough one.

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    Cameraman, my main hesitation with a Mazak around here is the apparent(and only by word of mouth to me)lack of parts/service/support in my area. BTW, here is what the duo looks like for 100k less and available 3 years ago to me roughly. My VM-3 with TR160, Kurt HD690 and riser. No matter what I do the pic is upside down.20180207_075711.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmack View Post
    Cameraman, my main hesitation with a Mazak around here is the apparent(and only by word of mouth to me)lack of parts/service/support in my area. BTW, here is what the duo looks like for 100k less and available 3 years ago to me roughly. My VM-3 with TR160, Kurt HD690 and riser.20180207_075711.jpg
    That's an awesome set up on the VM -3. Love the riser. (I even turned my lap top upside down to get a good gander (no worries), it's all good :-)..). .

    I agree MAZAK is/ can be a craps shoot (depending on where you are and seems the sands shift a lot in terms of reliability of support / West Coast seems to fair pretty well.). [kinda boggles the mind]. I think the folks that do quite well with them tend to be organizations that have a lot of machines, i.e. natural redundancy kicks in. MAZAk does some clever design work in terms of keeping costs down i.e. cutting corners where they can and keeping things that must be of a higher quality "Just that".

    I haven't made any enquiries about the British built CV5 500 (5 axis).



    ^^^ Kinda crazy as it's a proper trunnion through the bridge machine like the very high end Okuma's and the Makinos. One of the best layout's possible yet normally your supposed to have a "side door" for the operator (really main door side on). The CV5 500 5 axis's "front" door needs to be on the side, I'm not sure about those ergonomics there ?

    The price is purported to be "entry level" extremely competitive ? [Whatever that means.]. Shockingly less ?

    That could be the HAAS UMC 500 "effect" that gkoenig is talking about here in this thread ? Putting pressure on other builders to do "better" for less before HAAS takes more of a long term "Bite" out of their market.

    With MAZAK even MAZAK UK it might be hard to recommend until folks have kicked it about for a couple of years at least ?

    Could be great , could be terrible ? You don't know with such a UK "Home brew " machine , but in Th UK they've built some other travelling column machines for MAZAK Europe as well as some 5 axis models (Variaxis I believe) .

    Not sure If it ever comes to the USA or what's required to bring it in ? (Yet?) If it turns out to be a good machine ?

    _______________________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmack View Post
    If,(and I mean if, because it isn't even on the radar for them), Haas brought out a high end machine(more rigid, better accuracy/repeatability, spindle HP, better thermal comp controls, competitive pricing, etc.) they would sell them like hotcakes in my limited opinion.
    They won't. Haas has a very unique market position - they are operator friendly, plenty reliable, very well retailed, and very very reasonably priced. They are OK being +/- 0.005" class machines.

    They get there through economies of scale. They use the same tool-changers, coolant systems, controls, spindles, linear rails, etc etc across all their machine tools, which they buy in massive scale. The second you start swapping out components for a more "accurate" machine? All their economy of scale advantages and lean assembly stuff goes right out the window.

    Look at the VM machines - you definitely are *not* getting an Okuma M560V or Makino P95 class of machine, and the VM doesn't cost that much less. It is a non-competetive product who's success leans heavily on Haas's existing relationships and retailer/service network.

    I am looking at Doosan and Okuma as my only viable options at this point for an affordable 5 axis job shop option, but I would rather deal with the more familiar and proven control and support I have received from my Haas HFO than be forced to go out on a limb.
    For under $300k:

    - Okuma M460 5 Ax is $225k with all the trimmings except a tool probe and conveyor (call it $250k out the door)

    - Matsuura Mx330 is running about $250k. I don't know if it has a conveyor, but that is fully equipped otherwise and set to go.

    - DUM 50 Gen III is listing at $275k, but I have a feeling you can probably get them to well under $250k right now.

    None of these are USA Made.

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    The UMC 500 would be the ideal size/weight/floor space for my shop currently, but isn't any more accurate(based on the folks I know that own the UMC750/1000) than the 3 axis machines I have now with an added TR160 or 210. I have hounded my sales guy about a higher end Haas for several years, and I brought it up to several people personally at the Haas factory a couple of years ago when I visited. From what I can gather, they are comfortable being a good enough for most machine builder.
    They know what their target market is, and are focused on maximizing the money there. I feel they are leaving significant $$$ on the table, but I'm not Gene, or at his level of business. After all, how many UMC 500s will be sold per Mitsui Seiki VL-30-5x? 10 to 1? 20 to 1? I would bet 100 to 1.

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    [/quote}
    Look at the VM machines - you definitely are *not* getting an Okuma M560V or Makino P95 class of machine, and the VM doesn't cost that much less. It is a non-competetive product who's success leans heavily on Haas's existing relationships and retailer/service network.




    - Matsuura Mx330 is running about $250k. I don't know if it has a conveyor, but that is fully equipped otherwise and set to go.

    - DUM 50 Gen III is listing at $275k, but I have a feeling you can probably get them to well under $250k right now.

    None of these are USA Made.[/QUOTE]

    The only reason I bought a VM is I knew I would have 800 plus pounds riding the table the majority of the times with the TR160, vise, and riser set up.
    I figured the finer pitch ball screws would last longer with the anticipated load.
    My last quote on the Matsuura MX-330 wasn't in the same ballpark as what you have it at. My top two looks for my next machine are the MX-330 or OKK VCX-350.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    <snip all good , just for clarity of purpose>

    For under $300k:

    - Okuma M460 5 Ax is $225k with all the trimmings except a tool probe and conveyor (call it $250k out the door)

    - Matsuura Mx330 is running about $250k. I don't know if it has a conveyor, but that is fully equipped otherwise and set to go.

    - DUM 50 Gen III is listing at $275k, but I have a feeling you can probably get them to well under $250k right now.

    None of these are USA Made.
    ^^^ That's where I feel where the prices should be... In general.

    But $5 says I can't get those prices in CO,

    And $5 "says you probably might/can in Oregon. (not sure about the DMU 50 3rd gen. They're like "DMU 50 3rd gen not entry level anymore (nah ahhh ).

    My X-wife is in Oregon... Not moving there (no matter how cheap the machines might be.).

    Next week could be interesting...

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    The only reason I bought a VM is I knew I would have 800 plus pounds riding the table the majority of the times with the TR160, vise, and riser set up.
    I figured the finer pitch ball screws would last longer with the anticipated load.
    My last quote on the Matsuura MX-330 wasn't in the same ballpark as what you have it at. My top two looks for my next machine are the MX-330 or OKK VCX-350.
    I've been trying to wrestle an OKK VCX -350 out of my local rep for what seems like years, occasionally they have some specials... But never managed to close below $300K

    Spindle Torque might be lower than reckoned or anticipated (worth keeping an eye on/ checking out.).

    Really good with the fine pitch ball screws and all that, nice castings.

    I'm wondering how oversold Makino machines have been a few years ago and how many may end up on the second hand market a few years from now. I'm seeing some Matsuuras (quite new) that you wouldn't normally see. Not extolling the "vulture " mentality but seeing some nice equipment come onto the second hand market at not too bad-er prices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    And $5 "says you probably might/can in Oregon. (not sure about the DMU 50 3rd gen. They're like "DMU 50 3rd gen not entry level anymore (nah ahhh ).
    The Okuma is a direct, week-old quote (I'm starting to get into the market here)

    The Mx330 is the price someone I know just paid for one (though his was a little less than that as it was a demo machine)

    The DMU 50 Gen III was well within negotiating space of a quote I had a couple of months ago.

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