New HAAS UMC 1500 "Duo" release Q3 2020 - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    The problem for me with the OKK, Doosan, and Matsuura offerings is the Fanuc control. I have machines with Fanuc controls, and it is a love/ hate relationship at best. Tabbing through multiple menus to get to something that needs to be done many times throughout the day is a royal PIA.
    They are good controls, but they aren't as operator friendly as a Haas control.
    The Okuma OSP is foreign to me at this point, but lets just say I wasn't impressed with the level of knowledge shown by my local dealer the first time I checked out the M460-5ax.
    The DMG machines are interesting, but support is limited in my local unless you are a major player. I don't qualify as I own a very small job shop.

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    I posted this in our new machine day thread but will post it again as it's neat to see others converging on the 5+3 setup. The new TRT-160 here is so compact you get all kinds of room remaining on the VM-3 table.


    11-two-vises-trt160.jpg

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmack View Post
    The problem for me with the OKK, Doosan, and Matsuura offerings is the Fanuc control. I have machines with Fanuc controls, and it is a love/ hate relationship at best. Tabbing through multiple menus to get to something that needs to be done many times throughout the day is a royal PIA.
    These machines are all (or should be) coming with Fanuc controls that have iHMI + the interface the MTB designed for them. Now, iHMI is basically a whole separate Windows PC bolted onto the base Fanuc control (they boot up sequentially), but if the MBT does their job at least semi-competently, they will pathway the everyday tasks to be far more efficient.

    I'm not saying this is great or Heidenhain levels of quality, but the underlying architecture of a Fanuc is very solid, and the iHMI interfaces I've used have been pretty decent. When you start getting into the gubbins of the thing, you're back in old school Fanuc land (things like machine parameter changes and the like).

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmack View Post
    [/quote}
    <snip , all good> My top two looks for my next machine are the MX-330 or OKK VCX-350.
    @pmack and or @gkoenig or anyone else...

    New DMP 70 ? 5 axis version ?



    I posted this before in another thread.

    Any idea on price ? I'm guessing $160's to $190k- ish maybe ?

    linear scales and accurate DD type motors on 5 axis unit.

    Thermal cooling of key elements bearings and slides and spindle nose.

    (Improved springs and bearing design).

    Siemens 840D control.

    24K rpm + unusual HSK 40 option.

    DMP Series - Vertical milling from DMG MORI

    https://us.dmgmori.com/resource/blob...0-pdf-data.pdf


    Does it do it's job (this time) or does it have un-tanglable intractable problems beyond the wit of man ?


    Could there be a "quietly remove from shop floor" clause ?

    Anyone see or running or have one of these yet ?

    Could be good from the scalability and automation point of view ? (lower torque but maybe better high rpm surface finishes for certain types of parts .) ?



    My UMC 500 priced out on HAAS website 500 came to about $160 K

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________





    ^^^ I just tacked this one on, ~ Kinda interesting where you actually see it move but not cut i.e. NOT gratuitous graphics, + the Robot arm with laser part checker. Didn't know the Arms / WH3s were made by Deckle Maho ?

    ________________

    *** No affiliation

  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post

    Does it do it's job (this time) or does it have un-tanglable intractable problems beyond the wit of man ?


    Could there be a "quietly remove from shop floor" clause ?
    You couldn't pay me to take a DMG Mori right now, the same way you couldn't pay me to take a Range Rover. Beautiful, wildly capable on paper, but with a well-earned reputation for leaving you on the side of the road with limited recourse.

    Even so, these small 5 axis machines (the DMP-70, Brother M200/300, Okuma's entry who's name I forgot) are really intended for very specific production applications. For the DMG, Okuma and a 5 axis trunnion Robodrill - they are for making intricate medical/aero parts in large volumes. For the M200/300 from Brother, it is about high-volume production of mill/turn parts. These are niche machines with a small work envelopes and a very small number of tools onboard. If you're needs for a 5 axis mill are to be able to handle a very wide range of work that might come through the door of a job shop or prototype environment? I think the limitations and lack of flexibility are too high for the price.

    What we are in the middle of is a massive disruption in the Clayton Christensen (RIP) sense. You had a bunch of incumbents who had seen their 3 axis machines become commodities (thanks Haas and Doosan), who moved their investments into 5 axis products where they could pad the profit margins massively for a few years (slap $30k more in COGS onto a basic Genos mill and raise the price 250%). That party was never destined to last, and now it is coming to a close.

    2020 is not looking like a really great year for MBTs in general. Haas is already discounting the UMPs. Okuma/Matsura/DMG's opening quotes for their respective 5 axis mills have big discounts off of their original list prices. By the end of the year, I am guessing all 3 of them will have these machines on special for under $200k, which will become the list price by 2021.

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  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    same way you couldn't pay me to take a Range Rover.
    Be gone vile man, be gone from me! This car is a transporter of Gods! THE GOLDEN GOD!


    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    What we are in the middle of is a massive disruption in the Clayton Christensen (RIP) sense. You had a bunch of incumbents who had seen their 3 axis machines become commodities (thanks Haas and Doosan), who moved their investments into 5 axis products where they could pad the profit margins massively for a few years (slap $30k more in COGS onto a basic Genos mill and raise the price 250%). That party was never destined to last, and now it is coming to a close.
    Indeed. Another area where disruption is needed is the pallet changer side. Right now they are charging $200k for a something that likely costs $20k-$30k to make. The Haas is disrupting that with 8-station pallet pool for $91k but I think they are still not making that for smaller UMC-500. Once they do I think it will force other guys to start lowering prices as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    You couldn't pay me to take a DMG Mori right now, the same way you couldn't pay me to take a Range Rover. Beautiful, wildly capable on paper, but with a well-earned reputation for leaving you on the side of the road with limited recourse.

    Even so, these small 5 axis machines (the DMP-70, Brother M200/300, Okuma's entry who's name I forgot) are really intended for very specific production applications. For the DMG, Okuma and a 5 axis trunnion Robodrill - they are for making intricate medical/aero parts in large volumes. For the M200/300 from Brother, it is about high-volume production of mill/turn parts. These are niche machines with a small work envelopes and a very small number of tools onboard. If you're needs for a 5 axis mill are to be able to handle a very wide range of work that might come through the door of a job shop or prototype environment? I think the limitations and lack of flexibility are too high for the price.

    What we are in the middle of is a massive disruption in the Clayton Christensen (RIP) sense. You had a bunch of incumbents who had seen their 3 axis machines become commodities (thanks Haas and Doosan), who moved their investments into 5 axis products where they could pad the profit margins massively for a few years (slap $30k more in COGS onto a basic Genos mill and raise the price 250%). That party was never destined to last, and now it is coming to a close.

    2020 is not looking like a really great year for MBTs in general. Haas is already discounting the UMPs. Okuma/Matsura/DMG's opening quotes for their respective 5 axis mills have big discounts off of their original list prices. By the end of the year, I am guessing all 3 of them will have these machines on special for under $200k, which will become the list price by 2021.
    same here man, DMG is nothing but trouble!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmack View Post
    The Okuma OSP is foreign to me at this point, but lets just say I wasn't impressed with the level of knowledge shown by my local dealer the first time I checked out the M460-5ax.
    Don't let that dissuade you from Okuma, their controls are really nice. And it doesn't take long to figure out how to navigate the different pages.

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  14. #49
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    Default Let them eat cake... molds.



    M460V 5ax ^^^ doing "cake" mold , try to watch on high res and to the end ~ HAAS UMC 500 (unfortunately) will never be able to do what this machine is doing in the video.

    ====> Don't know if anyone has mentioned the new Genos M660 - V-e (basically a 1500 mm version of the Genos M 560V )

    GENOS M660-V-e // Okuma Europe GmbH

    From German / Eu HQ, don't know if it will land in the USA or not ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    <snip>

    What we are in the middle of is a massive disruption in the Clayton Christensen (RIP) sense. You had a bunch of incumbents who had seen their 3 axis machines become commodities (thanks Haas and Doosan), who moved their investments into 5 axis products where they could pad the profit margins massively for a few years (slap $30k more in COGS onto a basic Genos mill and raise the price 250%). That party was never destined to last, and now it is coming to a close.

    2020 is not looking like a really great year for MBTs in general. Haas is already discounting the UMPs. Okuma/Matsura/DMG's opening quotes for their respective 5 axis mills have big discounts off of their original list prices. By the end of the year, I am guessing all 3 of them will have these machines on special for under $200k, which will become the list price by 2021.
    ^^^ That's a nice wish

    I've seen this before... Basically what you are gonna see (unfortunately) is a Price "Bounce".

    Just before new machines are rolled out / new features etc.

    My base price quote for DMU 50 3rd gen was (some time ago) $277K but that's basically a naked machine. Actually optioned to be pretty useful came in around $377K (which is a little cray cray ).[The introductory prices to take a risk on a new 3rd gen were very good (at the time).].

    A few years ago I could have snapped up a DMU 60 monoblock , standard options for around $300K (that was a special) then "Snap" DMU 60mb is in a new price bracket $450's +++ …+ (k).

    Okuma has cyclical offers and does that push pull-thing to capture as many customers as they can. (as well as making room (production capacity) for different models in Taiwan - get rid of old stock.]. -Good deals can be had (for sure).

    UMC -500 will create it's own market but will that disrupt the "Others" I don't think so. And then you will see prices creep up on the UMC 500 "platfrom" slowly but surely. ~ Still an excellent way to get into 5 axis and if you want to get a different machine later, then the second hand market for HAAS-es is excellent. Low risk if it meets your technical / production requirements.

    Very difficult to apply the concept of 'Disruptive technology" to the machine tool industry when everything is very incremental in terms of development and price/performance capability ?

    I'm trying to think of a truly disruptive machine tool of the last 25 to 40 years (in the sense of being truly disruptive (at least in terms of vertical or horizontal milling and 5 axis / similar.). ~ B axis mill turn machines / MAZAK ??? : There are processes that are additive that could be considered sorta disruptive (without being literally "additive / 3D printing"), such as Probing , Work Piece Error setting compensation, tool poise control ? (shrugging shoulders)?
    Last edited by cameraman; 02-10-2020 at 03:31 PM.

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    Where are the chips supposed to go on the sides of the table?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails csm_genos_m660-v-e_open_ab42bddad3.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    M460V 5ax ^^^ doing "cake" mold , try to watch on high res and to the end ~ HAAS UMC 500 (unfortunately) will never be able to do what this machine is doing in the video.
    Yea, it is a super nice machine, probably what I will end up with. The only real issue (as far as I can tell) is that they offer zero automation provisions - no auto door, no air/hydraulic through the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Yea, it is a super nice machine, probably what I will end up with. The only real issue (as far as I can tell) is that they offer zero automation provisions - no auto door, no air/hydraulic through the table.
    I think they have kinda fixed that. -ish

    There's the load'n go. (Yeah it's not a Erowa pallete system ).

    Not 100% sure on the air/ hydraulic options.

    More tools as standard than there was.

    There's even robots (now) that can open the door and push cycle start lol.

    One nice aspect of that machine is that it would last 15 to 20 years (at least) depending on number of shifts.

    Interesting that Okuma Japan are trying to launch their "Armdroids" . Not android not robot arm but an "armdroid " ? :-) and Roids of all types ?

    ROID series | OKUMA CORPORATION

    Not sure if it's Genos "Allowed" ?

    No "Roid rage" with Okuma... nope.

    THE ROID STORY | ROID series | OKUMA CORPORATION

    The Roid story ^^^ + interview with Okuma developer of the Roid series.

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    The biggest disruption in recent years is probably the coming of Tormach. Sneer all you want they've got a lot of shops of varying sorts into CNC. And note that this is largely about applying commodity components (computers, controllers, software, etc.) to make what is now a kind of VMC. Nothing new about it, it's just all cheaper.

    For 5 axis, I suspect the big disruption will arise from some technology change akin to that - some force of commoditization that makes 5-axis machines of a particular precision level relatively easy to lash up. There are of course fundamental physical problems to solve to do this, but the same is true of CNC to begin with....

    (An aside - my DMU 60 was <$250K in 2006 - don't know if I just happened to pick the right time in the market, or there's been real inflation since.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    The biggest disruption in recent years is probably the coming of Tormach. Sneer all you want they've got a lot of shops of varying sorts into CNC. And note that this is largely about applying commodity components (computers, controllers, software, etc.) to make what is now a kind of VMC. Nothing new about it, it's just all cheaper.

    For 5 axis, I suspect the big disruption will arise from some technology change akin to that - some force of commoditization that makes 5-axis machines of a particular precision level relatively easy to lash up. There are of course fundamental physical problems to solve to do this, but the same is true of CNC to begin with....

    (An aside - my DMU 60 was <$250K in 2006 - don't know if I just happened to pick the right time in the market, or there's been real inflation since.)
    Yeah I think that's where my head's at too.

    I think I bought one of the first Tormach's sold in the US externally (machine number 7) ~ I was just really enthusiastic about the idea behind it. Spent many hours on the phone with Greg Jackson (in the early days) and helped him with some patent stuff / issues he was having. His vision / idea was the PC part being like the mill is to a "Personal Computer". I was into the basic concept right off the bat.

    I was totally appalled by the machine when it arrived lol. ~ Again that was early Chinese manufacturing in a very far flung province and all the special problems of its time and budget.

    I think you have the DMU 60 where it has the 45 degree tilting mill head with the big round turn table 5 axis ? IS that right ?

    I get my nomenclature mixed up so there's DMU 60 and a 65 and one is monoblock and the other is like what you have ?

    I'll double check.


    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    For 5 axis, I suspect the big disruption will arise from some technology change akin to that - some force of commoditization that makes 5-axis machines of a particular precision level relatively easy to lash up. There are of course fundamental physical problems to solve to do this, but the same is true of CNC to begin with....
    YES ^^^ I do believe that is possible, (from a technical point of view), but commercialization / business development requires immense skill and deep pockets and long term stay with it approach to gain purchase against considerable competition.

    Funny that it's taken Tormach this long to have linear rolling element slides and servos + Bt / BBT 30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    The biggest disruption in recent years is probably the coming of Tormach.
    True.

    I think more of the 5 axis disruption is built on:

    - Fusion is basically free and makes 3+2 machining crazy easy and cheap. 3+2 basically comes with every major CAM package's 3 axis side now (5 axis simultaneous remains kind of a novelty that very few shops really need).

    - TCPC/DWO dramatically reduces the programming complexity and required knowledge.

    - Spindle probes make everything better, but in this application, they allow you to dial-in various part indexes very tight, and allow for machine self-calibration.

    - CAMPlete/Vericut/NX and others make truly excellent simulation software. CAMPlete comes free (Matsuura, Methods) or deeply subsidized by the MTB for a lot of machines now. Bonus: You also get zero post issues with CAMPlete as it handles all that for you.

    - 5th Axis/Lang developing highly modular, relatively low-cost workholding that makes these machines really flexible.

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    I think you have the DMU 60 where it has the 45 degree tilting mill head with the big round turn table 5 axis ? IS that right ?
    Well, yes I have a DMU 60 - which is a monoblock (1 main casting.) - simultaneous 5-axis, Heidenhain iTNC530

    The head is indeed a B-swivel head, but it's 30° one way and 120° the other. C axis is a large rotating platen.
    YouTube
    (The video shows a machine with slightly later exterior styling, but the machine itself looks identical to mine.)

    The next generation is the DMU 65, which I think is also monblock - but that is a trunnion machine.

    By 45° head, I wonder if you mean the "nutating" heads on the (very large) Duoblocks?
    YouTube

    As an aside, note that at the beginning the mold took 508 hours to make (yikes!) Also, they talk about 4micron Rz, which is 160microinch - is that a common level of finish for a mold?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    Where are the chips supposed to go on the sides of the table?

    Chip augers on each side of X take the chips to the back and onto the conveyor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    Chip augers on each side of X take the chips to the back and onto the conveyor.
    The 560 has some space on the 2 sides and there are complains about chip evacuation at high MMR, this seems much worse, optical illusion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I think I pretty much agree with every line and statement you have set out there , really.




    ^^^ ????

    US commissioned, Chevalier, Methods MB 650, Various Quaser-ish machines (Taiwanese), Hardinge Quaser like machines... (Taiwanese.).

    Fryer ? Taiwanese iron but Siemens controls and tricked out in the USA.

    Nothing home grown on US soil per say ?

    Davis California DMG Mori maybe the CMX 's positional 4+1 ???

    Mazak VCU 500 c 5ax ? Some issues -Kentucky built ?

    That's a tough one.
    If you want something that fits your needs exactly, Fryer might be a good choice. I only have a lathe, so it's a whole different ballpark, but they build to order and will do almost anything you want. They will re-arrange doors, tweak clearances, seal it for graphite work, or even put a laser on it. Probably a little less iron than the big boys, but very capable.

    -Gene

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