New Horizontal not meeting expectations

Bigbore050 · Jun 27, 2018

Just revived a brand new Horizontal and I'm looking for some input from people who run similar machines to see if I am asking too much.

For now I'm leaving the brand of machine and dealer out because this in no way is a bash thread.

The machine in question is a 400 horizontal with a 50hp 15k 40 taper dual contact spindle and a fully programmable 4th axis.

The 1st thing I went to do on the machine was to face off my tooling plates. Fairly standard practice for most guys with a new machine. Plates are 1.5" thick 4140 mounted to a standard 4 sided tombstone.

Cutter was a 3" Iscar with .06r. Same tool we haven been using for years in our 40 taper verticals. The machine would buck and sound horrible regardless of the speeds and feed or depth of cut. Finish was always horrible and chattery. Depth of cut was as low as .01 and feed was .003 ipt. I even dropped to a 2" face mill and took a .01 cut on the lowest spot on the tombstone as I could but the finish is still sub par to my standards. I tried with the 4th clamped and unclamped but didn't see much difference in finish. Very slight difference in sound.

Small >1/2" cutters seem fine but I haven't even begun to stretch the load meters. Tech came out and tore everything down and said everything is tight your just asking too much for the machine. I have plenty of experience with 400 sized machines but they were all positional 4th axis.

Am I really expecting too much out of this thing? I don't see how I'm going to be able to use the 50hp. Maybe this is something I have to program around.

Last photo was the 2". 800rpm 10ipm 4fl .01 depth of cut.

Kaszub · Jun 27, 2018

Bigbore050 said:
Just revived a brand new Horizontal and I'm looking for some input from people who run similar machines to see if I am asking too much.

For now I'm leaving the brand of machine and dealer out because this in no way is a bash thread.

The machine in question is a 400 horizontal with a 50hp 15k 40 taper dual contact spindle and a fully programmable 4th axis.

The 1st thing I went to do on the machine was to face off my tooling plates. Fairly standard practice for most guys with a new machine. Plates are 1.5" thick 4140 mounted to a standard 4 sided tombstone.

Cutter was a 3" Iscar with .06r. Same tool we haven been using for years in our 40 taper verticals. The machine would buck and sound horrible regardless of the speeds and feed or depth of cut. Finish was always horrible and chattery. Depth of cut was as low as .01 and feed was .003 ipt. I even dropped to a 2" face mill and took a .01 cut on the lowest spot on the tombstone as I could but the finish is still sub par to my standards. I tried with the 4th clamped and unclamped but didn't see much difference in finish. Very slight difference in sound.

Small >1/2" cutters seem fine but I haven't even begun to stretch the load meters. Tech came out and tore everything down and said everything is tight your just asking too much for the machine. I have plenty of experience with 400 sized machines but they were all positional 4th axis.

Am I really expecting too much out of this thing? I don't see how I'm going to be able to use the 50hp. Maybe this is something I have to program around. View attachment 231671 View attachment 231672
Last photo was the 2". 800rpm 10ipm 4fl .01 depth of cut.

Did you check your tool? insert seating? everything tight? if this thing has 50HP it is fucking junk.

BTW I can do better than that on my 1998 MAZAK VTC ....it is probably worst vertical Mazak ever made.

Kaszub · Jun 27, 2018

ASk that tech why they would put 50HP motor in a machine that cant cut.

Milland · Jun 27, 2018

You really should just name the machine, with a complete set of pics of the cutter body, how the tooling plate is mounted, and info on whether any structural testing was done by the tech (deflections under load while using an indicator to measure displacement).

Otherwise you're asking us to guess with blindfolds on.

Joe788 · Jun 27, 2018

Are you sure you're using the correct pullstud?

Orange Vise · Jun 27, 2018

Is the chatter the same regardless of Y-axis position? How does the machine cut near the base of the tombstone?

Milland · Jun 27, 2018

Joe788 said:
Are you sure you're using the correct pullstud?

Yeah, any sign of fretting on the taper or face mate?

Bobw · Jun 27, 2018

Did the tech check the drawbar tension?

michiganbuck · Jun 27, 2018

I would plate check the cutter..perhaps looking for a blade/insert that has no dish.
for the little time it takes a plate check is worth it to plate check every cutter.

Gobo · Jun 27, 2018

Is your floor satisfactory? How is your slab?

chip_maker · Jun 27, 2018

Did you sign off on the installation acceptance?

Is the machine Taiwanese?, Korean? (would be surprised if it was Jap) give us some idea.

Jashley73 · Jun 27, 2018

That's got to be a tool-clamping issue. Bad pull-stud, bad drawbar, something wrong with the spindle connection.

As to a 50hp, 15k 40-taper. It's honestly irrelevant for this discussion. The machine won't make a skim-cut, something is wrong.

Load up a test-bar, or even an empty toolholder - something like an ER collet chuck without the collet, and/or an empty endmill holder, if you don't have a test-bar. Check the runout on the toolholder, and also push on the toolholder in X/Y axes, and Z-axis in/out (with a pry-bar behind the flange) to see if there's any movement.

This should tell you if the pull-stud and/or draw-bar is bad.

If the pull-studs & drawbar do check out good...

Any chance this thing has been crashed before you've taken delivery? If it's a 15k spindle, I'd expect ceramic or at least hybrid bearings, which would be fragile.

How's the spindle sound with no-load? Any bad noises?

Tonytn36 · Jun 27, 2018

After you've done the above and also made sure the plates were tight.....(always check the obvious).....

Call the dealer and tell them they can either fix it, or load it back on the truck and send the refund.

Bigbore050 · Jun 27, 2018

Kaszub said:
Did you check your tool? insert seating? everything tight? if this thing has 50HP it is fucking junk.

BTW I can do better than that on my 1998 MAZAK VTC ....it is probably worst vertical Mazak ever made.

Always. Shell mills came out of running machines and were running great. Tried 2 different shell mills and 2 new holders. The mills aren't new but they are great running veterans.

Milland said:
You really should just name the machine, with a complete set of pics of the cutter body, how the tooling plate is mounted, and info on whether any structural testing was done by the tech (deflections under load while using an indicator to measure displacement).

Otherwise you're asking us to guess with blindfolds on.

I can get some pics tomorrow. If I put a test indicator from spindle to tombstone and hit the stone with the palm of my hand the indicator will bounce .005 but always return to 0. tombstone to tool body I can get less than .001 wiggling by hand on a 3" shell mill in a 2.5" projection holder. From my experience I find that acceptable but not the .005 on the stone. I was not able to hover over the tech but I know he at least tore down the cones and checked everything from there.
I know he didn't make it to the 4th clamping mechanism.

Joe788 said:
Are you sure you're using the correct pullstud?

Bobw said:
Did the tech check the drawbar tension?

I not sure on the studs. I will check them to the supply manuals tomorrow but I belive the tech did check drawbar tension with our studs.

Bigbore050 · Jun 27, 2018

michiganbuck said:
I would plate check the cutter..perhaps looking for a blade/insert that has no dish.
for the little time it takes a plate check is worth it to plate check every cutter.

Not sure on what plate check is. I did check height of all inserts when touching off tools if thats what you mean.

Gobo said:
Is your floor satisfactory? How is your slab?

Not to spec but are they ever. I got a 630mm 50t 40 feet away that eats tool steel like candy sitting on the same floor.

chip_maker said:
Did you sign off on the installation acceptance?

Is the machine Taiwanese?, Korean? (would be surprised if it was Jap) give us some idea.

Jap brand made by the Taiwanese. Didn't know that till I seen the tag on the machine. But I have other Taiwanese machines and I'm satisfied for the price point of them. Beggars cant be choosers.

Jashley73 said:
That's got to be a tool-clamping issue. Bad pull-stud, bad drawbar, something wrong with the spindle connection.

As to a 50hp, 15k 40-taper. It's honestly irrelevant for this discussion. The machine won't make a skim-cut, something is wrong.

Load up a test-bar, or even an empty toolholder - something like an ER collet chuck without the collet, and/or an empty endmill holder, if you don't have a test-bar. Check the runout on the toolholder, and also push on the toolholder in X/Y axes, and Z-axis in/out (with a pry-bar behind the flange) to see if there's any movement.

This should tell you if the pull-stud and/or draw-bar is bad.

If the pull-studs & drawbar do check out good...

Any chance this thing has been crashed before you've taken delivery? If it's a 15k spindle, I'd expect ceramic or at least hybrid bearings, which would be fragile.

How's the spindle sound with no-load? Any bad noises?

Ceramic and spindle sounds awesome. Can't hardly hear it at 15k. Also sounds good cutting alum with a 1/2 endmill at a snails pace. When I turn up the feed override I can start to hear a dull ring.

Tonytn36 said:
After you've done the above and also made sure the plates were tight.....(always check the obvious).....

Call the dealer and tell them they can either fix it, or load it back on the truck and send the refund.

Checked and made the tech check. Getting close to that but I gotta have this spindle. We need to be issuing a PO for at least one, if not 2 more of these. But the way this is going there wont be twins on the floor.

I am grateful for all the reply's and sounds like I got my answer that something isn't right. My only experience with additional live axis is C axis lathes so I really don't know if a live 4th is considerably less ridged or what to expect.

I just would like to be sure I'm not the idiot so I can really lean on these guys to find a solution.

And yes this is not my or your guys problem to diagnose but if you want to have a wack at it go head. I will give you what info I can.

Should I notice a major difference in the 4th axis clamp during a operation like this?

I should also add that Im not using dual contact tool holders and dont plan on it.

Joe788 · Jun 27, 2018

"If I put a test indicator from spindle to tombstone and hit the stone with the palm of my hand the indicator will bounce .005 but always return to 0."

If you mean .005 inch and not .005mm, look no further. I would ask what kind of tombstone, how it's constructed, what it's made out of - but even if you had the worst tombstone on earth, it wouldn't move .005 inch. Either somebody bottomed out the threads on the bolts holding the tombstone down, or your machine has a serious problem.

michiganbuck · Jun 27, 2018

Plate check is to set a mill cutter on the surface plate and test all the highest points are within the error you allow..then go around all the low points of the blades/inserts to see they are all low going towards the center.
With trying a new machine you need to know the cutter is good.

If an end mill you do the same. check all the end flutes are the same height, and there is some dish on each end flute.

*but you said "[Always. Shell mills came out of running machines and were running great. Tried 2 different shell mills and 2 new holders. The mills aren't new but they are great running veterans."
...so that may rule out the cutter.

Ox · Jun 27, 2018

Big Bore:

Since you don't seem to be heavy poster, I want to bring attention to the fact that I sent you a Private Message. You should have notification of it somewhere. There is another member having issues with possibly the same machine (?) that he doesn't want to make public yet too. You should compare notes.

---

Otherwise - 50hp of a 40 taper? Really?
Must be so that it can tap 3/4-10 and run 15K both w/o a gearbox?

Doo you really have application for splitting the 1* on the B?
I've had both, and I lean towards 1* indexing these days!

------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Bigbore050 · Jun 27, 2018

Joe788 said:
"If I put a test indicator from spindle to tombstone and hit the stone with the palm of my hand the indicator will bounce .005 but always return to 0."

If you mean .005 inch and not .005mm, look no further. I would ask what kind of tombstone, how it's constructed, what it's made out of - but even if you had the worst tombstone on earth, it wouldn't move .005 inch. Either somebody bottomed out the threads on the bolts holding the tombstone down, or your machine has a serious problem.

.005" midway up on stone. It's just a standard 400mm cast iron stone from tombstone city.

I have movement all the way too the pallet. If I put a indicator on the side of the machine pallet I can move it with the palm of my hand. But not a full .005". If I go below the turn table it's solid.

That's the 1st thing I showed the tech. But he didn't tear down lower than the pallet clamping cones even tho there is movement below the cones.

Ox · Jun 27, 2018

Bigbore050 said:
.005" midway up on stone. It's just a standard 400mm cast iron stone from tombstone city.

I have movement all the way too the pallet. If I put a indicator on the side of the machine pallet I can move it with the palm of my hand. But not a full .005". If I go below the turn table it's solid.

That's the 1st thing I showed the tech. But he didn't tear down lower than the pallet clamping cones even tho there is movement below the cones.

Pretty obvious that it's in the B.

Please note that I snuck a post in above you.

Ed had trouble with the brake on an Okuma a yr or so ago, but AFAIK that has been fine since.

------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

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